Lifelines - Vinyl vs Uncoated

[CarinaPDX]

I had one of my vinyl-coated lifelines part while crossing the Atlantic in '96 - I was lucky not to have ended up in the drink. I consider it very dangerous (as do the racing authorities). Not using vinyl is a no-brainer. The terminals were swaged and some had split. Many of the small turnbuckles had frozen. And that after about 3 years in salt water.

My solution was to replace the lines with 1/4" SS 316 7x7 wire. Of course that is far stronger than needed, but is much easier on contact with the human body. I used Nicopress sleeves and SS thimbles to make up eyes (an easy DIY job) and 3/16" line to lash the ends to the pulpit/pushpit. The result is a strong, inexpensive, durable solution. I have had no problem with abrasion at the stanchions but I have seen others stitch a bit of leather on the wire in way of the stanchions.

I started out using a tight-fitting plastic sleeve on the lower shrouds to reduce chafe on the jib sheets - what a learning experience. After some years the plastic deteriorated and broke off. The 5/16" 1x19 SS wire underneath had a lot of dirt between the strands, and had started to corrode. A painful reminder that stainless steel needs oxygen to maintain the protective oxide coating, and coatings/coverings will prevent this.

[w1651]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Yes, well done. Allow me to point to the lashing going around the stanchion, not just through the welded-on eye. This outperforms steel lifelines big time.

I would've chosen a smaller thimble and looking at the photo I think one size smaller would still be good enough for radius?

ciao!
Nick.

Instead of this I was thinking about using a soft shackle instead on my boat. Here's the calculator.

Soft Shackles

here's the video to make them.

‪Softie Soft Shackle Construction- How to.‬‏ - YouTube

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by w1651

Instead of this I was thinking about using a soft shackle instead on my boat.

The soft shackle will not function as a lashing, i.e. you can't use it to tighten the lifeline like with a turnbuckle.

What I really meant with my comments on that photo is that the lifeline is attached around the stanchion itself, not just the welded on eye which would be the weak point. That eye is just used to keep it in place.

ciao!
Nick.

[Pete7]

Which is an excellent point Nick thanks need to re-do mine at some point and they will be going around the rail not just through the eye.

Pete

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Which is an excellent point Nick thanks need to re-do mine at some point and they will be going around the rail not just through the eye.

Thanks but the honor goes to Steve Dashew who put this in his encyclopedia long ago :-)

When you have eyes as a drilled hole in a little triangular plate that is welded to the stanchion, then it is much stronger. The little eyes from welded-on wire stock have failed often enough to not trust them.

ciao!
Nick.

[smurphny]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Which is an excellent point Nick thanks need to re-do mine at some point and they will be going around the rail not just through the eye.

Pete

Ditto. Thanks. Went Dyneema a couple of years ago and would never go back to coated wire.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by smurphny

Ditto. Thanks. Went Dyneema a couple of years ago and would never go back to coated wire.

Yes it's great... sailors that try fiber never go back to steel wire. I have it since 2003 and still have the same with no real signs of UV damage... never left the tropics.

ciao!
Nick.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

The soft shackle will not function as a lashing, i.e. you can't use it to tighten the lifeline like with a turnbuckle.

What I really meant with my comments on that photo is that the lifeline is attached around the stanchion itself, not just the welded on eye which would be the weak point. That eye is just used to keep it in place.

ciao!
Nick.

Correct, a lashing will get it tight. But I wonder if a soft shackle would make an acceptable pelican hook substitute? You need a little slack; less than for a carabiner, but not zero, like an over-center lever.

I really like gates, both fore and aft, for safer docking. Only the aft gate needs a pelican hook for tensioning purposes (I use a toggle and pin on the forward gates). A soft shackle could replace the toggle and pin.

Thoughts?

[Amgine]

Just made my first soft shackle today. Nifty!

You could certainly get a pelican hook with an eye to use with dyneema line, and use a soft shackle to attach it to the thimble-lined eyesplice. But you can likely thread the eye onto the thimble before making up the eyesplice, obviating the need for the soft shackle. It would be a bit more complex doing the eyesplice, but not too challenging.

[s/v Jedi]

For the gates I use a bowline at the "permanent" end and a couple of half hitches on the other end. What's wrong with a couple of honest knots? Forget about Pelican hooks: those are linked to the steel wire and obsolete of you go fiber.

ciao!
Nick.

[thinwater]

* Yes, I know they make pelican hooks with eyes. Not much to discuss there. I can't imagine why anyone would use a shackle of any sort for that; Amsteel splices nearly as fast as it knots.

* A bowline in Amsteel is not an honest knot. It will hold depressingly little, and half hitches are less than reliable, no matter the number, since they can loosen. I've knotted lots of spectra in high-load apps, and the knots that hold don't untie.

So what about a soft shackle as a component in an Amsteel lifeline system? Reliable enough?

[Amgine]

So what about a soft shackle as a component in an Amsteel lifeline system? Reliable enough?

Definitely. I can think of several other styles of knots which, likely, will hold securely in Amsteel without undue loss of line strength. They are not, however, as sure to untie, nor quick to tie, so they are not particularly convenient. The prusik, for example, should be secure enough and allows tensioning the line, but can jam and certainly cannot be tied, tensioned, or untied one-handed. Locking the bowline with two half-hitches is reasonably secure and still untie-able, although your loop will need to take into account the hitches. The bowstring, more used for loops in thick ropes and hawsers, should work well enough in Amsteel but may be nearly impossible to untie the loop after if it has taken great strain.

[Jacko]

Originally Posted by zeehag

stainless ones also cut the limbs off folks falling from masts--as good as a knife......i love my spectra ones-- nice n cute colors soft so dont hurt ye from falling on them

Hi Ya Zeehag Just interested how long you have been using spectra I have been thinking going same way I have other spectra around the boat here in full on tropics and it stands up well. Gotta go with the colours Jacko

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Amgine

Definitely. I can think of several other styles of knots which, likely, will hold securely in Amsteel without undue loss of line strength. They are not, however, as sure to untie, nor quick to tie, so they are not particularly convenient. The prusik, for example, should be secure enough and allows tensioning the line, but can jam and certainly cannot be tied, tensioned, or untied one-handed. Locking the bowline with two half-hitches is reasonably secure and still untie-able, although your loop will need to take into account the hitches. The bowstring, more used for loops in thick ropes and hawsers, should work well enough in Amsteel but may be nearly impossible to untie the loop after if it has taken great strain.

Prusics absolutely slip on Spectra under high load. In fact, there are VERY few knots proven on this stuff. It isn't so much lose in strength in most cases as slippage.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Prusics absolutely slip on Spectra under high load. In fact, there are VERY few knots proven on this stuff. It isn't so much lose in strength in most cases as slippage.

I find double fishermen knots hold very well/don't slip. I used to sew thru them but don't any more and have never had one slip. I have usually be able to untie them with a spike but sometimes not if they have been really highly loaded.

Samson told me that several round turns around a stanchion and then a tie back top to itself with a constrictor type knot knot works decently well. Apparently the commercial boats tie spectra lines to bollards this way routinely.

A lashing finshed with lots of half hitches and then covered some tape also does not slip.