Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 22-07-2011, 15:44   #61
Registered User
 
CarinaPDX's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Portland, Oregon, USA
Boat: 31' Cape George Cutter
Posts: 1,674
Re: Lifelines - Vinyl vs Uncoated

I had one of my vinyl-coated lifelines part while crossing the Atlantic in '96 - I was lucky not to have ended up in the drink. I consider it very dangerous (as do the racing authorities). Not using vinyl is a no-brainer. The terminals were swaged and some had split. Many of the small turnbuckles had frozen. And that after about 3 years in salt water.

My solution was to replace the lines with 1/4" SS 316 7x7 wire. Of course that is far stronger than needed, but is much easier on contact with the human body. I used Nicopress sleeves and SS thimbles to make up eyes (an easy DIY job) and 3/16" line to lash the ends to the pulpit/pushpit. The result is a strong, inexpensive, durable solution. I have had no problem with abrasion at the stanchions but I have seen others stitch a bit of leather on the wire in way of the stanchions.

I started out using a tight-fitting plastic sleeve on the lower shrouds to reduce chafe on the jib sheets - what a learning experience. After some years the plastic deteriorated and broke off. The 5/16" 1x19 SS wire underneath had a lot of dirt between the strands, and had started to corrode. A painful reminder that stainless steel needs oxygen to maintain the protective oxide coating, and coatings/coverings will prevent this.
__________________

__________________
CarinaPDX is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2011, 23:06   #62
Registered User

Join Date: May 2010
Location: St Pete FL
Boat: 1972 Contest 33
Posts: 783
Re: Lifelines - Vinyl vs Uncoated

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Yes, well done. Allow me to point to the lashing going around the stanchion, not just through the welded-on eye. This outperforms steel lifelines big time.

I would've chosen a smaller thimble and looking at the photo I think one size smaller would still be good enough for radius?

ciao!
Nick.
Instead of this I was thinking about using a soft shackle instead on my boat. Here's the calculator.

Soft Shackles

here's the video to make them.

‪Softie Soft Shackle Construction- How to.‬‏ - YouTube
__________________

__________________
Auto pilot is saying get up here and grab the tiller.
w1651 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2011, 06:50   #63
Do… or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
Re: Lifelines - Vinyl vs Uncoated

Quote:
Originally Posted by w1651 View Post
Instead of this I was thinking about using a soft shackle instead on my boat.
The soft shackle will not function as a lashing, i.e. you can't use it to tighten the lifeline like with a turnbuckle.

What I really meant with my comments on that photo is that the lifeline is attached around the stanchion itself, not just the welded on eye which would be the weak point. That eye is just used to keep it in place.

ciao!
Nick.
__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2011, 07:10   #64
Moderator
 
Pete7's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Solent, England
Boat: Moody 31
Posts: 8,551
Images: 14
Re: Lifelines - Vinyl vs Uncoated

Which is an excellent point Nick thanks need to re-do mine at some point and they will be going around the rail not just through the eye.

Pete
__________________
Moody 31 - April Lass
Pete7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2011, 16:32   #65
Do… or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
Re: Lifelines - Vinyl vs Uncoated

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete7 View Post
Which is an excellent point Nick thanks need to re-do mine at some point and they will be going around the rail not just through the eye.
Thanks but the honor goes to Steve Dashew who put this in his encyclopedia long ago :-)

When you have eyes as a drilled hole in a little triangular plate that is welded to the stanchion, then it is much stronger. The little eyes from welded-on wire stock have failed often enough to not trust them.

ciao!
Nick.
__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2011, 16:37   #66
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 586
Images: 3
Re: Lifelines - Vinyl vs Uncoated

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete7 View Post
Which is an excellent point Nick thanks need to re-do mine at some point and they will be going around the rail not just through the eye.

Pete
Ditto. Thanks. Went Dyneema a couple of years ago and would never go back to coated wire.
__________________
smurphny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2011, 17:08   #67
Do… or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
Re: Lifelines - Vinyl vs Uncoated

Quote:
Originally Posted by smurphny View Post
Ditto. Thanks. Went Dyneema a couple of years ago and would never go back to coated wire.
Yes it's great... sailors that try fiber never go back to steel wire. I have it since 2003 and still have the same with no real signs of UV damage... never left the tropics.

ciao!
Nick.
__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2011, 19:26   #68
Writing Full-Time Since 2014
 
thinwater's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Boat: PDQ Altair, 32/34
Posts: 4,332
Re: Lifelines - Vinyl vs Uncoated

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
The soft shackle will not function as a lashing, i.e. you can't use it to tighten the lifeline like with a turnbuckle.

What I really meant with my comments on that photo is that the lifeline is attached around the stanchion itself, not just the welded on eye which would be the weak point. That eye is just used to keep it in place.

ciao!
Nick.
Correct, a lashing will get it tight. But I wonder if a soft shackle would make an acceptable pelican hook substitute? You need a little slack; less than for a carabiner, but not zero, like an over-center lever.

I really like gates, both fore and aft, for safer docking. Only the aft gate needs a pelican hook for tensioning purposes (I use a toggle and pin on the forward gates). A soft shackle could replace the toggle and pin.

Thoughts?
__________________
Gear Testing--Engineering--Sailing

Writing full-time since 2014.
Bookstore:http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/20...ook-store.html
thinwater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2011, 19:45   #69
Registered User
 
Amgine's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Vancouver BC
Posts: 1,384
Images: 1
Re: Lifelines - Vinyl vs Uncoated

Just made my first soft shackle today. Nifty!

You could certainly get a pelican hook with an eye to use with dyneema line, and use a soft shackle to attach it to the thimble-lined eyesplice. But you can likely thread the eye onto the thimble before making up the eyesplice, obviating the need for the soft shackle. It would be a bit more complex doing the eyesplice, but not too challenging.
__________________
Amgine
Blog

On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog anchored in a coral atoll.
Amgine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2011, 20:20   #70
Do… or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
Re: Lifelines - Vinyl vs Uncoated

For the gates I use a bowline at the "permanent" end and a couple of half hitches on the other end. What's wrong with a couple of honest knots? Forget about Pelican hooks: those are linked to the steel wire and obsolete of you go fiber.

ciao!
Nick.
__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2011, 21:18   #71
Writing Full-Time Since 2014
 
thinwater's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Boat: PDQ Altair, 32/34
Posts: 4,332
Re: Lifelines - Vinyl vs Uncoated

* Yes, I know they make pelican hooks with eyes. Not much to discuss there. I can't imagine why anyone would use a shackle of any sort for that; Amsteel splices nearly as fast as it knots.

* A bowline in Amsteel is not an honest knot. It will hold depressingly little, and half hitches are less than reliable, no matter the number, since they can loosen. I've knotted lots of spectra in high-load apps, and the knots that hold don't untie.

So what about a soft shackle as a component in an Amsteel lifeline system? Reliable enough?
__________________
Gear Testing--Engineering--Sailing

Writing full-time since 2014.
Bookstore:http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/20...ook-store.html
thinwater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2011, 22:58   #72
Registered User
 
Amgine's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Vancouver BC
Posts: 1,384
Images: 1
Re: Lifelines - Vinyl vs Uncoated

Quote:
So what about a soft shackle as a component in an Amsteel lifeline system? Reliable enough?
Definitely. I can think of several other styles of knots which, likely, will hold securely in Amsteel without undue loss of line strength. They are not, however, as sure to untie, nor quick to tie, so they are not particularly convenient. The prusik, for example, should be secure enough and allows tensioning the line, but can jam and certainly cannot be tied, tensioned, or untied one-handed. Locking the bowline with two half-hitches is reasonably secure and still untie-able, although your loop will need to take into account the hitches. The bowstring, more used for loops in thick ropes and hawsers, should work well enough in Amsteel but may be nearly impossible to untie the loop after if it has taken great strain.
__________________
Amgine
Blog

On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog anchored in a coral atoll.
Amgine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2011, 23:42   #73
Senior Cruiser
 
Jacko's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Far North Queensland Australia
Boat: John Pugh / Currawong 48/OAL
Posts: 188
Re: Lifelines: Vinyl vs Uncoated

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
stainless ones also cut the limbs off folks falling from masts--as good as a knife......i love my spectra ones-- nice n cute colors soft so dont hurt ye from falling on them
Hi Ya Zeehag Just interested how long you have been using spectra I have been thinking going same way I have other spectra around the boat here in full on tropics and it stands up well. Gotta go with the colours Jacko
__________________
Jacko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2011, 07:00   #74
Writing Full-Time Since 2014
 
thinwater's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Boat: PDQ Altair, 32/34
Posts: 4,332
Re: Lifelines - Vinyl vs Uncoated

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amgine View Post
Definitely. I can think of several other styles of knots which, likely, will hold securely in Amsteel without undue loss of line strength. They are not, however, as sure to untie, nor quick to tie, so they are not particularly convenient. The prusik, for example, should be secure enough and allows tensioning the line, but can jam and certainly cannot be tied, tensioned, or untied one-handed. Locking the bowline with two half-hitches is reasonably secure and still untie-able, although your loop will need to take into account the hitches. The bowstring, more used for loops in thick ropes and hawsers, should work well enough in Amsteel but may be nearly impossible to untie the loop after if it has taken great strain.
Prusics absolutely slip on Spectra under high load. In fact, there are VERY few knots proven on this stuff. It isn't so much lose in strength in most cases as slippage.
__________________
Gear Testing--Engineering--Sailing

Writing full-time since 2014.
Bookstore:http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/20...ook-store.html
thinwater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2011, 07:39   #75
CF Adviser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Boat: Custom Van De Stadt 47 Samoa
Posts: 3,743
Re: Lifelines - Vinyl vs Uncoated

Quote:
Originally Posted by thinwater View Post
Prusics absolutely slip on Spectra under high load. In fact, there are VERY few knots proven on this stuff. It isn't so much lose in strength in most cases as slippage.
I find double fishermen knots hold very well/don't slip. I used to sew thru them but don't any more and have never had one slip. I have usually be able to untie them with a spike but sometimes not if they have been really highly loaded.

Samson told me that several round turns around a stanchion and then a tie back top to itself with a constrictor type knot knot works decently well. Apparently the commercial boats tie spectra lines to bollards this way routinely.

A lashing finshed with lots of half hitches and then covered some tape also does not slip.
__________________

__________________
estarzinger is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
lifelines

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 16:33.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.