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Old 10-04-2016, 20:54   #16
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Re: Let me introduce myself and hopefully gain some knowledge from you.

I advise finding a well kept larger well traveled 50+ sailboat that draws less than 6-4. Many excellent ones are custom designed and built and are far above what a typical benetau and their ilk provide.
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Old 11-04-2016, 07:20   #17
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Re: Let me introduce myself and hopefully gain some knowledge from you.

FWIW, do not faff about buying a smaller boat then upgrade etc. You have the dynamics to handle a largish vessel so get the one and only boat you'll ever want. This would have saved me at least 100K had i done this the first time out.

Then in order...

1. No dark hull... you'll find Beneteau 57's were mostly dark blue.. insane. They are also a Farr design and demand close attention to sail settings, good boat for those who want to work hard. (IMO, this is the best Beneteau ever)
2. No teak. BTDT. Its an EXPENSIVE headache waiting to happen ...
3. 2 cabins is best. Forget about 6 aboard... you will kill someone by day 3.

The Med is not easy.. some tough conditions with short steep waves ... however, lots of EXPENSIVE marinas and very busy in summer.

The above are my opinions... but think carefully coz a big dark hull boat with teak decks may have more work built in than you think.

GL
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Old 11-04-2016, 07:47   #18
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pirate Re: Let me introduce myself and hopefully gain some knowledge from you.

Well.. if your going for size and full budget.. these are specifically built for what you have in mind.
Not the most beautiful.. but boy are they roomy and live aboard friendly..
Love that galley space...
Amel Super Maramu For Sale - Williams and Smithells
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Old 11-04-2016, 08:27   #19
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Re: Let me introduce myself and hopefully gain some knowledge from you.

If you like the Amel Super Maramu,spend hours,or days ! watching the Delos videos.
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Old 11-04-2016, 19:38   #20
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Re: Let me introduce myself and hopefully gain some knowledge from you.

How handy is your GF? You are contemplating a very complicated boat with many systems. One guarantee is that those systems will break. If some of those systems are essential, they must be fixed immediately. I would definitely urge you to throw into the mix her ability to fix essential systems. If the answer is that she will call a repair person, put a large chunk of money aside for that from the very beginning.

Make sure it's a boat you can manage alone and like enough to keep no matter what may come. As we all know, relationships can change or end, and you don't want to be stuck with a boat that isn't right for you alone.
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Old 11-04-2016, 20:08   #21
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Re: Let me introduce myself and hopefully gain some knowledge from you.

To the OP, do not plan to out run storms, it may happen, but, generally, heaving to and letting it pass you by has a lot going for it. Read Boatman61's posts on the subject.

Now, I don't really know what you had in mind what is a storm, my definition is 60 knots and up. This generally gives you large breaking seas, and I think is best avoided one way or another. The deal is that on really long passages, such as the one done by El Pinguino this year (40-ish days Auckland to Chile), you may find yourself in a weather pattern you don't like, and *stuff* happens.

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Old 11-04-2016, 23:58   #22
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Re: Let me introduce myself and hopefully gain some knowledge from you.

I haven't contemplated any boat as of yet, I literally have no one boat that I am set on, hence why I came on here asking your opinions.

It seems the same names re-appear, Amel super Maramu 53, HR53 and Moody 54. Are these considered the bench mark of a water sailing">blue water sailing vessels for that price?

Will the above hold their value or even increase in value to say a 2nd hand oceanis 58, Hanse 575 or Beneteau 57?

Why not a blue hull?

Are the sailing characteristic of the older boats better than the newer breed of boat?

Why are the newer breed of boat disliked? Is the workmanship not as good? Or is it just older boats are better?

My Gf is pretty handy, she fixes her own car. Most girls wouldn't do that. Its going to be a learning experience for us both, I don't know everything, no one does but we will learn.

I will have back up funds, I won't be buying a boat with every penny I have, if it needs a man in a set overalls then I'll pay the man and learn from him at the same time.

Lastly I never said I would 'plan' to out run a storm, I know stuff happens. However being in a storm on a vessel that is sea worthy and made to with-stand the weather is surely far better than being on a floating condo.
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Old 12-04-2016, 02:38   #23
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Re: Let me introduce myself and hopefully gain some knowledge from you.

Amel, Moody: They are examples of boats that have been built as blue water cruisers. I would not say "benchmarks" since there are many other candidate brands too. Amels are often referred to as boats that are "ugly in my opinion but for a good reason" (i.e. built more to be good blue water boats, than to be pretty).

Good blue water cruisers tend to be strongly built, and therefore tend to be more expensive than cheaply built mass production boats. I use term "cruiser" since typically blue water oriented boats are not fast "racers". Mass production boats (and racing oriented boats) can be nice boats too, but if you have money and want to invest in safety, stability and good quality, and not speed, and not size, then blue water oriented cruisers could suit you best.

I believe good quality boats hold their value better, and used good quality boats probably even better. Good quality boats are also less likely to require expensive repairs (thinking e.g. about problems with rotting balsa cores). They will probably also suffer less damage if you happen to hit something with your boat.

Beneteau, Hanse: Nice boats but built more for space and low price point than for expensive strength.

Blue hull: One (minor) problem might be that you need to polish them more often than white boats to keep them pretty.

Sailing characteristics: So called modern boats often have bread aft and flat hull. Conservative blue water fanatics might like narrower aft and heavier displacement. Some really ancient old boats have narrow hull (that was the style then, maybe more for wood building technology reasons than for any other reasons). Those triangle shaped modern boats aim at good speed. Those mentioned blue water fanatics seek for stability in heavy seas.

Backup funds and learning from the experts: Excellent approach.
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Old 12-04-2016, 04:48   #24
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Re: Let me introduce myself and hopefully gain some knowledge from you.

P.S. I have to add that expensive boats may also have more expensive repairs if you want to replace good quality parts with good quality parts (if they ever break). One particular thing that people seem to be afraid of is teak decks, that people usually like (except if you want to maximize sun light reflection to keep the boat cool in the tropics), but that are rather costly, when the time to renew them comes. A good example of an expensive new replacement component. A combination of cored deck (with rotting potential) and screwed teak may also sometimes cause concern.
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Old 12-04-2016, 05:44   #25
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pirate Re: Let me introduce myself and hopefully gain some knowledge from you.

Well.. kinda started along the cheaper route of strong capable boats then on to bigger that will do it in a higher standard of overall comfort..
However if you wish to expand to.. also capable within limits here's some..
BVI Yacht Sales Ltd. (Nanny Cay, British Virgin Islands)

BVI Yacht Sales Ltd. (Nanny Cay, British Virgin Islands)

BVI Yacht Sales Ltd. (Nanny Cay, British Virgin Islands)

Fly and buy in November and spend the winter cruising the islands and getting to know your boat.. what could be better..

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Old 12-04-2016, 06:10   #26
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Re: Let me introduce myself and hopefully gain some knowledge from you.

I would highly recommend you hire a consultant like John Kretschmer or Bob Perry. Your questions are very good, but really show that a guiding and experienced hand would ensure a good purchase.
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Old 12-04-2016, 08:04   #27
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Re: Let me introduce myself and hopefully gain some knowledge from you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJPT View Post
I haven't contemplated any boat as of yet, I literally have no one boat that I am set on, hence why I came on here asking your opinions.

It seems the same names re-appear, Amel super Maramu 53, HR53 and Moody 54. Are these considered the bench mark of a blue water sailing vessels for that price? These are probably your top contenders. Add Contest and perhaps some lower priced Oysters... but though you get the badge, it does not mean they are better.

Will the above hold their value or even increase in value to say a 2nd hand oceanis 58, Hanse 575 or Beneteau 57? Of these 3, only 1 can be construed as a "blue water"; the Beneteau 57... in my opinion ...

Why not a blue hull? Because they fade fast and create far more heat. Oyster consider that in a confined locker, the temperature from a dark hull compared to a white hull can be 40C higher...

Are the sailing characteristic of the older boats better than the newer breed of boat? An Amel sails like an Amel.. she wont win any speed prizes but wont come in last either. A mate just went to the Caribbean at an average of 180 nm per day. The Farr design (Bene 57) will exceed 200 nm per day. But takes more sail handling than a ketch rig. I like my Gin and Tonic in a dry cockpit behind a dodger. Bene 57 has a hard dodger. Moody also IIRC

Why are the newer breed of boat disliked? Is the workmanship not as good? Or is it just older boats are better? Built to a price point and less "marine" ... more like a modern apartment instead of an oak lined library.
My Gf is pretty handy, she fixes her own car. Most girls wouldn't do that. Its going to be a learning experience for us both, I don't know everything, no one does but we will learn.

I will have back up funds, I won't be buying a boat with every penny I have, if it needs a man in a set overalls then I'll pay the man and learn from him at the same time.

Lastly I never said I would 'plan' to out run a storm, I know stuff happens. However being in a storm on a vessel that is sea worthy and made to with-stand the weather is surely far better than being on a floating condo.
You will not escape all storms. Get a boat you'll feel safe in while Eole throws its best punches
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Old 12-04-2016, 08:35   #28
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Re: Let me introduce myself and hopefully gain some knowledge from you.

I wish I was in your situation but only knowing what I know now after having spent a fair amount of time out with my wife sailing and living aboard. I certainly don't know the best and worst of all sail makes and models (and neither does anyone else although some have a wide knowledge of a lot of boats). But the one thing you have not described is your previous serious experience on any size boat, let alone a 50+' boat. A 40' boat can be more than many beginners can handle and the bigger the boat the harder it is to deal with - handling, systems, money, etc. Bigger boats have bigger sails, bigger booms, significantly more things can happen that can overwhelm even an experienced sailor. And the experience necessary goes for both your and your GF.

Not saying you can't do this. Just understand that most 50's are beasts, some more than others. I would recommend you get a boat that is well-known as easy to handle double-handed. Deerfoots (older for sure) are considered very good in this regard although some would consider them eccentric. I have met a couple of boats that were successfully double-handed. There are certain characteristics that make some boats easier to double-hand than others. Make a list of those characteristics and look for boats like that. A boat like that is generally a lot easier for one person on watch to handle at night as well.

I have never been on an Amel but have seen many in far places. Owners seem to like them and trust them. I have heard of some problems (which I can't remember the specifics) that were common to Amels but you will have to check that out.

But if you and your GF don't know what preferences you have, because you haven't been out on other boats, you will have to be lucky to get the "right" one. Asking opinions is certainly helpful but what some people like or tolerate can be wildly different than others with equal experience would like or tolerate. Many boats in Mexico where they were entirely suitable for one side of the couple and a disaster for the other. So one side was left alone on the boat while the other took off for dry land - forever - and the relationships often ended as well. Not trying to dissuade you, just do your homework very carefully. Chartering would be very useful to get better ideas of what you might like.

Certainly follow the advice above to get a boat that has some amenities that your liveaboard GF needs by herself. It can get very lonely for some alone on a boat. So make it fun as possible and make sure it addresses the basics.
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Old 12-04-2016, 13:04   #29
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Re: Let me introduce myself and hopefully gain some knowledge from you.

Thanks for all your advice.

For the last 3 years we have chartered with a few friends around Portsmouth and sailed the Solent on 40 ft yachts but now we need to get serious.

This year we will buy a RS200 dinghy and go back to basics.

We plan to do our Yacht masters and ICC plus a few other courses this year.

I am a ex Royal Navy Diver/now commercial diver so have spent the last 16 years of my life at sea on and off in every weather and many locations, so know a little bit about the ocean.

I helmed a RN warship as a Quater Master, was the Navigators Yeoman for a year ie charts, almanac, chart plotting, notice to mariners etc. Also helmed many other types of vessels in and out of the RN. Plus my seamanship is pretty handy if I do say so, i can make a lovely monkey's fist or flake down hawsers so they look like door mats! Useful stuff!!!

The only thing I am missing is sea time on a wind powered vessel (yacht) That will come this year and I'm confident I will get it squared away roundly!

My Gf is used to me being away, I work away, I'm away as we speak in Kosovo on a explosives course.

We plan to charter the boat we will buy or at least a few boats before we buy, like I said previously I'm not going to rock up at a marina with 300k and just buy it. Homework will be under taken.

Few Q's if I may

Whats the ideal fin keel length? For sailing and for anchoring in shallow waters, ie best compromise, not too much heel.

Is stainless anchor and chain the way ahead? It seems a lot of adverts make a big deal about a stainless anchor/chain. Used to have phosphorous bronze one's in the Navy - expensive!

In mast furling, is it the way ahead, can it snag? wise idea for two people?

Someone mentioned having the largest fuel and water tanks as possible, how many litres should I be looking at for each?

Water maker, whats a good litre per hour?

Is AC worth the hassle? I have worked in Iraq and the AC was forever a pain, some days it would fall off the bulkhead when roughers and leak everywhere, had to fashion a sort of japanese water garden bamboo diverter to get rid of the excess water.

Yanmar and Volvo Penta engines seem the go to engines, any one better than other? I see VW 2.0tdi V5 engine also comes up from time to time, they as reliable in a boat as they are in a Golf?

North sails? Worth the extra money?

B & G or Garmin for the Nav system? Which has the best auto pilot?

Water tight bulkheads, worth considering for a liveaboard? Have them on warships but that's for when you hit a mine or encounter a air attack, I'm hoping not to have that issue on my boat.

How many fridge's and freezers? Is it the case of you can never have enough?

If the hull delaminates, chips, needs a repair is it more of a issue if the hull is blue or grey over standard white?

The more electric toliets I have the more there is to go wrong, should I look for a boat with two heads only?

AIS - again is that something that I should be looking at? Will that help lower the insurance premium like it does on commercial vessels, infact I think it is mandatory now in the UK for commercial vessels.

Cheers
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Old 12-04-2016, 14:21   #30
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Re: Let me introduce myself and hopefully gain some knowledge from you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJPT View Post
Thanks for all your advice.

For the last 3 years we have chartered with a few friends around Portsmouth and sailed the Solent on 40 ft yachts but now we need to get serious.

This year we will buy a RS200 dinghy and go back to basics.

We plan to do our Yacht masters and ICC plus a few other courses this year.

I am a ex Royal Navy Diver/now commercial diver so have spent the last 16 years of my life at sea on and off in every weather and many locations, so know a little bit about the ocean.

I helmed a RN warship as a Quater Master, was the Navigators Yeoman for a year ie charts, almanac, chart plotting, notice to mariners etc. Also helmed many other types of vessels in and out of the RN. Plus my seamanship is pretty handy if I do say so, i can make a lovely monkey's fist or flake down hawsers so they look like door mats! Useful stuff!!!

The only thing I am missing is sea time on a wind powered vessel (yacht) That will come this year and I'm confident I will get it squared away roundly!

My Gf is used to me being away, I work away, I'm away as we speak in Kosovo on a explosives course.

We plan to charter the boat we will buy or at least a few boats before we buy, like I said previously I'm not going to rock up at a marina with 300k and just buy it. Homework will be under taken.

You certainly have more experience than many. Good to have that on the larger boats. It wasn't clear from you previous posts. Go for it.

Few Q's if I may

Whats the ideal fin keel length? For sailing and for anchoring in shallow waters, ie best compromise, not too much heel.

No ideal length. Shorter is better for areas with shallow waters, e.g. in the Caribbean. Otherwise it really depends on the overall design and handling of the boat. Fin keels (narrow) give good performance in quicker helm response but they can be more fragile for groundings and sometimes breakage - depending on materials and construction. A modified keel is a good compromise in my experience.

Is stainless anchor and chain the way ahead? It seems a lot of adverts make a big deal about a stainless anchor/chain. Used to have phosphorous bronze one's in the Navy - expensive!

You certainly don't need stainless ground tackle. Often it is specified more for looks than strength and longevity. Galvanized steel is fine for most. The high strength chains can give you more strength for the weight and link size. This is one place where some like to go a bit over rather than just meet the minimum requirements - heavier chain and heavier anchor. If you want to start WWIII ask about which anchor is best.

In mast furling, is it the way ahead, can it snag? wise idea for two people?

We had in mast roller furling on our main and loved it. You sacrifice some power for the same size sail without battens of course. Any kind of furling can jam but some have excellent records for dependability. I would prefer it myself but it is a personal choice. Ours was easy enough for my wife to furl to reef. You want the lines led to the cockpit of course. And you want to be able to lock the furling to whatever point you leave it. You'll need to ask about specific the specific system that is on any boat you consider.

Someone mentioned having the largest fuel and water tanks as possible, how many litres should I be looking at for each?

This is also a personal choice to some degree. For a 50' boat I would want 200 gallons (760 litres) fresh water at least, even for two people. But some would get by with less especially with two people. 1000 litres would be nice. You want at least two tanks. Fuel - at least 400 liters would be my preference, again in two tanks if possible. Very, very important for both is the materials used for construction, access ports for cleaning, how they are installed so they don't sit flush with the hull at any point (to help prevent corrosion).

Water maker, whats a good litre per hour?

Is AC worth the hassle? I have worked in Iraq and the AC was forever a pain, some days it would fall off the bulkhead when roughers and leak everywhere, had to fashion a sort of japanese water garden bamboo diverter to get rid of the excess water.

If you are sitting in a hot port (moored or in a slip) for any length of time, AC can make a big difference as to comfort and temperament (i.e. state of mind). But they do use a lot of electricity so if you have one you need enough generation capability or plugged in to shore power (expensive!). You really need an AC generator for most AC systems. You do have to take of the condensation as you note. It can turn stinky if drained to the bilge but many do that. You could have a sump with a small pump to put it overboard. We had a household window unit when we kept the boat (and me) in port in Mexico one summer. It would never work cruising and it leaked all over the deck until I put a longer hose on it. Built in is best. You certainly want to have lots of cabin fans in any case.

Yanmar and Volvo Penta engines seem the go to engines, any one better than other? I see VW 2.0tdi V5 engine also comes up from time to time, they as reliable in a boat as they are in a Golf?

I'm not an expert but some have said to avoid all the auto engines (Mercedes, VW, BMW) that you sometimes see. There are other diesels that are OK for boats, e.g. Beta and others.

North sails? Worth the extra money?

Good sails are always worth the money. More money does not necessarily mean better sails though. Sometimes you pay more for a specific brand than you get back in quality. And some North sails are made better (and more expensive) than others.

B & G or Garmin for the Nav system? Which has the best auto pilot?

Water tight bulkheads, worth considering for a liveaboard? Have them on warships but that's for when you hit a mine or encounter a air attack, I'm hoping not to have that issue on my boat.

Some sailors would insist on watertight bulkheads but not me. I wouldn't turn down a boat that had them but I wouldn't insist on it. I would rather put the money in to other safety gear and then try to not sink the boat.

How many fridge's and freezers? Is it the case of you can never have enough?

IMO you do not want to get more fridges and freezers than you need. They always need maintenance, take a lot of power, and space. More systems, etc. The quality and capability of the boxes and the condensors is far more important - insulation, reliability, energy requirements, cost, space, etc. Top loading units are the most efficient but also less user friendly from a day to day perspective. I would like a top loading freezer and a top loading refrigerator with perhaps another refrigerator for beverages and items you want to get to often - but it will cost you in energy and run times.

If the hull delaminates, chips, needs a repair is it more of a issue if the hull is blue or grey over standard white?

You absolutely do not want a dark hull in the tropics - end of subject. Darker colors tend to be harder to repair color-wise. You will notice more chips in a hull where the top coat (gel coat or paint) is different than the underlying material. Hopefully you will never have a hull delaminate on you.

The more electric toliets I have the more there is to go wrong, should I look for a boat with two heads only?

I personally do not like electric toilets but they do have their proponents. I would never have more than two toilets unless there was some sort of overriding consideration. Many cruisers have only two and then they end up using one as a storage locker and backup anyway. That depends on the cabin layout though and how many guests you will have (often). If you have an aft master you will probably want an aft toilet/shower. But one forward should do the trick. If you will always have 6 people you could have happier crew with more but I am not a fan of having that many crew on a long term basis - ever.

AIS - again is that something that I should be looking at? Will that help lower the insurance premium like it does on commercial vessels, infact I think it is mandatory now in the UK for commercial vessels.

I would consider AIS as a very desirable system. I have no idea as far as insurance for recreational boats but it could have an impact I suppose with select insurers. I like it for insuring myself. I just installed it on my latest boat and will always have it on on offshore passages, and in the fog, at night, etc. inshore. I got a Vesper 850 which has a great reputation and uses much less power than radar for routine use.

All of the above is personal preference. Good specific questions....

Cheers
My thoughts above....
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