Larger vs Smaller Boat

[barnakiel]

Well.

I think there are many ways to do it on the cheap - big boat or small one.

And to go on the cheap does not imply one has to. Some have too, others can, still others simply want to.

I have seen many owners of small boats paying more in dockage / maintenance fees that some owners of the big boats.

So, my point is: it is not only the size of the boat that counts but also the owners willingness and skill to shop around, DIY and buy/spend smartly.

An example:

An 'expensive' boatyard (so called by locals) - we get in, blast, replace, paint and are back in the water two days later, total cost 500 bucks.

A 'cheaper' boatyard (so called by locals and transiting cruisers) - no chandlery in place, non-existent pressure in karscher, few and ignorant hands, our friends go there, spend half a day dangling from the travelift (no sufficient supports) then they cannot clean the bottom due to too low pressure in the blaster, a slack hand paints one side of the boat for 8 hours (that's the time we needed to apply two coats), on Sunday morning they learn they cannot leave the boatyard because Sunday is a HOLLY day (sure thing they get charged for somebody else's HOLLY day). Total cost 600 bucks.

Sounds fun, but our boat was 46', our friends' was 27' ...

b.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

Me is thinking of simply getting a retractable bowsprit..............so I can fit into all possible social circumstances. Sir.

In case Jedi breaks my bank account I have a backup plan with retractable bowsprit too

Ciao!
Nick.

[TheWatchman]

I guess I should add fuel to the fire.

I am so far from being wealthy, it is laughable! I work blue collar 50 hours a week to pay off my home(boat). I eat fiberglass, aluminum, sawdust and every carcinogenic chemical known to man year after year to pursue my dream. Next June I am free and clear!!!

Then this poor man is going to pull up alongside Jedi and hi-five Nick and celebrate because I have put my heart and soul into this dream, and have overcome and beat the odds.

There seem to be some very bitter people, who despise anyone who has something larger than they have.

I have learned to sew, plumb, wire, navigate, cook, can, communicate via SSB, rig, .......the list is endless! I dont let anybody do anything on my vessel. I am self-sufficient.

If I needed to call my handyman boy to do everything for me, I guess I would have to be wealthy to own this boat!

Learn how to do your own repairs and maintenance and you can afford to own and operate a boat larger than 36 feet.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by TheWatchman

Then this poor man is going to pull up alongside Jedi and hi-five Nick and celebrate because I have put my heart and soul into this dream, and have overcome and beat the odds.

Right on! I'm keeping a gallon of Abuelo rum apart for you Watchman!

cheers,
Nick.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by TheWatchman

I guess I should add fuel to the fire.

I am so far from being wealthy, it is laughable!

G'Day Watchman,

Well done and well said. Shows that hard work and perseverance beats whining every time.

You'll be a long way from the South Pacific, but we'll send you a virtual toddy when you leave.

Cheers,

Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II lying Morning Cove, NSW Oz

[BlueWaterSail]

I would like to offer the following ...

Mark Johnson and S/V Jedi's Nick are doing pretty much the same thing here, except Mark is doing it on a (estimated) $50,000 boat and Nick is doing it on a (estimated)$500,000 boat.

That extra zero matters a lot, Nick, you're picking fights where you shouldn't, IMHO.

BWS

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by BlueWaterSail

I would like to offer the following ...

Mark Johnson and S/V Jedi's Nick are doing pretty much the same thing here, except Mark is doing it on a (estimated) $50,000 boat and Nick is doing it on a (estimated)$500,000 boat.

That extra zero matters a lot, Nick, you're picking fights where you shouldn't, IMHO.

Okay okay, you're all right and I'm wrong. That extra zero is ruining my cruising experience. It keeps me from meeting the locals, experiencing the culture, need bigger SSB etc.

ciao!
Nick.

[atoll]

Originally Posted by BlueWaterSail

I would like to offer the following ...

Mark Johnson and S/V Jedi's Nick are doing pretty much the same thing here, except Mark is doing it on a (estimated) $50,000 boat and Nick is doing it on a (estimated)$500,000 boat.

That extra zero matters a lot, Nick, you're picking fights where you shouldn't, IMHO.

BWS

well managed to resist this long but,having built and circumnavigated a 36 footer for 12 years,then built and circumnavigated a 63 footer for the last 10 years.
also do all my own work,and work in the industry,building and delivering yachts.

i have to side with mark,everything is exponential,materials,size of hardware etc.

performance wise,yes bigger is faster,but another thing iv'e learnt is a few days more or less at sea really dosen't matter.

recently delivered a 33 ft cape dory 4500 miles across the pacific in 36 days,what a pleasure ,easy to reef,easy to sail,probably carried more sail for longer than i would have done on a bigger boat,purely because of the ease of getting sails up and down.

if you enjoy hard work get a big boat....................................

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Right on! I'm keeping a gallon of Abuelo rum apart for you Watchman! cheers, Nick.

and can you put out 3 extra fenders on the other side for us, we will be along shortly and don't want to anchor with something that I can lift with one hand and doesn't have a handle bar.

The only answer to the opening question is to go and view both yachts. One may well stand out more than the other and the choice should be made with the heart not the calculator, because it is going to be a home for several years and needs to be loved and cherished.

That said, as David alludes too, a few costly nights in a European marina will soon focus the mind.

Pete

[DoubleWhisky]

Hello Everybody
Nice discussion - almost mono versus multi thread

Let me put my three cents into it

1. First cent: Original topic was Bavaria Cruiser 46 versus Bavaria Vision 50. I sailed a lot of Bavarias and never was a great fan of the brand. Anyway there are more or less successful models around. Generally the Cruisers were more successful than Visions, and for not bad reasons. I have not them at hand, but please be so kind and check polar diagrams and stability curves for both boats. 46 is rather better all - round sailer and without doubt more stable boat. If I remember correctly the angle of vanishing stability for Vision is under 110 degrees - acceptable rather for inshore work only. Buying the boat inspect carefully the possibilities for installing additional tanks - both for water and for fuel. Original tankage capacity for both boats is very much on low side. I think that it will be easier to fit additional tanks on 46 C than on 50 V, but I'm not sure. Difference in price (adding the VAT for 50 V) will enable You to equip the boat to the higher specification, I suppose, than You have at present on 50 V. My vote - based on assumptions and estimations only, as we were given limited informations - is therefore for buying and upgrading 46 C.
2. Second cent: It is difficult to me to tell this... This time I'm totally supporting Nick S/V Jedi... Never thought it is possible... Only a joke of course There are a lot of Nick's posts around here I do not agree with, but there are a lot of his posts I do agree with. And I'm sure that the bigger (good) boat is reasonable choice over smaller (good) boat, whenever one can afford the bigger one. It is nice to sailing small boats, of course. Even it can be a fun from time to time to leave Your big boat somewhere for some weeks and make a nice passage on smaller one. But for longer time, for day - to - day well-being every few feet of length (of well designed boat) offer incredible improvenent in comfort. Not all of us (and very few of our Admirals) are admirers of Spartan's way of life... Of courrse - there are limits, but general rule for me is - the best boat for one is the biggest boat one can afford and sail. And there is no doubt - today, with proper modern equipement, one can sail much bigger boat than twenty years ago...
3. Third cent: I'm in the happy situation, because I can professionally work onboard. Less happy - to some extent - thing is that because of some reasons I can spend rather no more than a half of the year cruising. Anyway - I'm not a liveaboard cruiser. I fully appreciate that the ability to self execute the maintenance and repair works is crucial. But - on other hand - I found that from pure economical point of view it is better for me to have the professionals doing most of regular servicing and maintenance. I can earn (on hour - to - hour basis) substantially more, than the cost of external labour. Additionaly - often the professional is much more efficient than me (counting in hours of work). It is just as simple.

Best regards

Thomas

[mrohr]

This conundrum has an easy solution: Buy the smallest boat YOU can live with!

[David_Old_Jersey]

Boats very much an item where the work to maintain is far far less than the work to bring back up to "as new" standard.

I get the feeling that the Big Boat = lots more expense comes from folks having bought more length than they could (really) afford by buying poorer condition.

Buy a 1972 60 footer that has sat unloved for many years and it will cost more and always be more work to maintain (even after the "refit") than a 4 yo Beneteau of the same length (as long as the PO has not been a complete idiot ) - or a 10 yo Beneteau if the PO(s) have actually maintained her properly (and on that of course "properly" has varied meanings, some think keeping in as new condition 24/7 - others take the view of wear down to major refit (and then sell?!).........whilst most probably be somewhere in the middle with a refit somewhere in the future, living with PO's who were much the same.

But if you start off with good - then a lot easier and cheaper to maintain (and that includes preventative maintanence (when you get to choose to do things!) - fixing things as they break is called repairing ).

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by atoll

i have to side with mark,everything is exponential, materials, size of hardware etc.

For building the boat, yes, sure. But the OP has the choice between two boats that are both ready to sail away with, where the bigger is also newer. That is just a no-brainer.

For maintenance (not building it), the cost is not exponential when you do as much work as possible yourself, and many items cost the same or just a little more. The items that cost seriously extra, last a very long time, like anchor, engine, masts, rigging etc.

I want to give another angle to this discussion: Dashew didn't build a 64' boat because he thought his customers would like a more expensive boat; he's much smarter than that. The boat was designed for just a couple to live aboard and sail to any place in any conditions. He recognized that boat length improves comfort & safety, waterline improves speed (waterline is 64' too) etc. so his boats became bigger and bigger (and lighter) as he improved his designs and optimized them for easy handling.

But he also saw the negatives of big boats: short-handed sailing should be easy so he had to go ketch-rigged with very short masts (thus big roach sails) and put some electric winches in the package (much more but you would have to read his books to get the complete picture). Price: 33-40% of total price is the interior of the boat, so he went for a 38' interior. Also, he kept all systems simple like plain rigging instead of rod etc.. The Sundeer 64's were sold new for $450k in 1994 and are one of the few that follow inflation and go up in price as time passes. This is a very different boat than say an Oyster 60 who advertises 30 coats of varnish on the saloon table. Different boats for different people.

ciao!
Nick.

[atoll]

there is no question about the pedigree and functionality of the dashew,breed.

maybe this thread would have been more aptly posted as "large low quality yacht vs smaller higher quality yacht"

give me an older 40 ft van des stad, swan,baltic or sweden yachts over a same priced 50ft badly copied from the above in the form of a bavaria.................

size aint every thing,but quality of build is ultimately whats between you and the wet stuff.

the differences between a 46 and 50ft bavaria are marginal,what i have experinced on a 2 year old with 4500 miles is the spade rudder bearings are shot,floors moving,hull flexing,not a problem when tied to a marina dock and used as an apartment..........................

[Mark Johnson]

Nick you keep missing the point, and thinking that your experience, with your boat, applies here. It doesn't. I read Steve's book about 20 years ago, and other than the fact that he "originally" had to lower the main a good bit to bring the boom across, (because of the main's huge roach) I liked pretty much ALL of his innovations.

Steve Dashew's boats are brilliantly thought out for speed, simplicity, and safety. They are as different from the average 64' er as a boat could possibly be! It could be considered a 54' boat on a 64' waterline. This type of boat was never part of the discussion. In 40 years of cruising, I have only seen one "out there".

The same could be said of my friends Chris White 54' tri, only it was a 40' boat on a 54' waterline. It was thought out for simplicity, and as inexpensive to build as possible. It cost them about the same thing as my incredibly slick little 28'er did to build, and took about the same length of time, 8 years, (but there were two of them, and my project, "30 years ago", was built solo.)

In order to keep the price and build time down, Chris dictated that their boat didn't even have pressure water or a windlass! Still, in the end, the boatyard fees, and overall handling, as well as maintenance hassle, became a deal breaker. When they drug anchor in Belize, they almost lost the boat, because kedging out the anchor for a 54' boat, was too much for a guy in his 60s. They had no insurance, and almost lost their ONLY old age asset! They sold the boat ASAP, and rebuilt an old Shucker motorsailor for a fraction of the money. It is 40', and more the size and expense of what a working class retired couple can afford. They are still cruising, and much happier now.

If one sets aside the most unusual 1% of designs, like your boat, or my friends Chris White 54, because they really aren't as much BIGGER boats, as the same size on a longer waterline... And listen to the point I was saying: With similar sorts of boats, average designs, the LARGER ones tend to have more cabins, heads, and accommodation. They tend to have "larger" of the things that have to be added after purchase, like ground tackle, windlasses, downwind optional winches, larger engines, larger refrigerators, separate freezers, AC generators, etc. They "tend" also to use more fuel, more bottom paint, cost more for the fancier equipment that they "usually" have. (but not necessarily)... They also cost much more for dockage, haulouts, insurance, taxes, to heat and air condition, ON and ON. Larger boats, of the same type, (yours doesn't count), are "in general" more expensive and more hassle for a retired couple with no crew, to handle.

There may be hundreds of ways to get around these generalities, and own a longer boat for the same cost. These are the unusual situations for sure. I was never referring to these...

I install these systems, and have worked on hundreds of boats. With no doubt, the larger boat tends to cost more to own, EXPONENTIALLY, as does the larger house. Why you have chosen to try to turn this FACT into just "my opinion" , by pointing out valid exceptions, is beyond me. Don't take it personally, it is just true... I never said it was "always true", just "usually" true, for the average boats.

The only "opinion" that I offered, was when I said: "For people on a CRUISING BUDGET... if one gets a boat that is twice the size of what they would be perfectly happy with, then the added ongoing expense, as well as operation and maintenance hassle, would be more of a negative, than the difference in motion of the larger boat, is a positive". My "opinion" is based is my 40 year observation, in general terms, doesn't always apply, and was offered to try to add something useful to the discussion. You obviously don't agree. I got that!

I have always admired Steve Dashew's boats, for the brilliant and totally unique boats that they are. If I was a younger man, quite rich, and willing to give up the ultra shallow anchorages that I prefer, I honestly couldn't think of a nicer design. GOOD CHOICE!

I am truly happy for your good fortune, and hope your boat continues to suite your needs, as I hope mine continues to suite my needs. I used to want a 40'er, but as I get older, and my injuries continue to plague me, the more I think that my little 34, is just right.

Happy sailing, Mark