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Old 21-02-2011, 08:13   #61
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Re: Larger vs Smaller Boat

I like in these 'discussions" when someone has to trash someone else's view points just because they don't match their own. That normally wins me over to their viewpoint!

Steven - have we decided this for you yet? If so which way are you now thinking of going?
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Old 21-02-2011, 08:45   #62
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Re: Larger vs Smaller Boat

I think ill be tossing a coin at this rate One issue thats not been discussed much is the speed benefit of a larger boat,the extra 1.2n would make a fair difference on longer legs. bigger being more comfortable at anchor as well as in motion.
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Old 21-02-2011, 09:57   #63
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Re: Larger vs Smaller Boat

With two boats of identical design and identical types of systems & outfitting, in every respect except size... only one boat is 15' longer, (= taller, wider, deeper, etc) The larger boat will have every single piece Incl. the engine, proportionately larger, and over a 20 year period... including one or two sail, running and standing rig replacements, possibly the engine and ALL the boat's systems... The larger boat will cost about 2 to 3 times as much to own, if traveling to the same places, in the same way, with the same level of care to the boat, while living the same lifestyle.

Do you really want to argue with that? If so, you are really embarrassing yourself!

Nick, I assure you that while you may pick away at a small thing like "the # of through hulls", my points are all true. Even if you have only one through hull and I have 5. My very small plastic through hulls HAVE to cost a small fraction of the "multi use manifold" (that you have to have) connected to your one large through hull.

"My point" was: With fair comparisons of apples to larger apples... Smaller boats, IN GENERAL, have smaller, fewer, and simpler systems, engine, sails, and rig. If you want to think otherwise, help yourself. In fact, I think you should get a 110' boat, because IT won't cost any more either.

Then take your nice new 110' boat, and travel for a few years to about 20 countries along with us. We will each have $10,000 per year to live on, (which is on average what we and our friends from all over the world cruise on). This would be for ALL boat expenses, health expenses, land life expenses... EVERY cent that you spend in the world for TWO people! Do you really think that you and your wife can live on, maintain your boat on, and cruise to 20 countries on $10,000 per year? REALLY?

"The smallest boat that will serve your needs, will be LESS expensive to own, sail, and maintain, than the similarly equipped boat, that is twice the size of what will serve your needs". If you do your own work across the board, the smaller boat is LESS HASSLE to own and maintain as well.

For those of us on a budget, it is the difference in being able to go or not! I'm not trying to make a case against large boats at all. For rich people who hire their work done, are willing to go only to the places where large boats go, and can easily afford to pay for all of these expenses... Knock yourself out. You will certainly be more welcome at the yacht club, where as people like us are not. What I am saying does not apply to you at all. I do NOT think that you would be happier with a smaller boat.

I was talking to a totally different group of cruisers who, like most of us, ARE on a budget, and do their own work including bottom maintenance. For them: You might well find that A smaller (but still large enough) boat's extra motion at sea and to a lesser degree at anchor, is a small price to pay, if it is the difference in being able to go cruising at all or not, Or the difference in weather or not you can go see the inland sights, and occasionally go out to eat. I'd rather have a smaller boat, and the extra cash to spend on shore.

To each his own! Mark

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Old 21-02-2011, 10:13   #64
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Re: Larger vs Smaller Boat

SPEED... We sailed our little 34'er non stop from Georgetown Bahamas, to Boqueron PR, mostly to windward, in 5 days!

A year later when we ran short of cash, we sailed from Trinidad to the Beaufort NC inlet in 12 sea days... during OCT!

Larger boats of the same type are always faster, but ALL small boats are not slow...

Regarding seaworthiness, A 34' sistership to ours has been around the world, by way of the horn, and 20 years of great passages have proven our design's seaworthiness.

It is a relatively recent phenomenon that 40' boats are considered average or even small. 30 years ago, the same passages were being made successfully with the average boat at the time, of about 32'... M
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Old 21-02-2011, 15:58   #65
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Re: Larger vs Smaller Boat

Wow, Mark!

Really.

Its not that complicated. If you can score a large boat today in a depressed market, keep the vessel simple, maintain it well, the only real disadvantage would be sail replacement in about 5 years. And the difference would be one more sail, using my history as an example.

Once again, go big! There will not be another opportuntiy where your purchasing power is as good as today.

There are no axes to grind here, its just a logical conclusion.

If you are a marina boater, the moorage is the only downside. I live aboard, so the expense is offset in that I don't pay rent. If your intention is to cruise: rigging, sails, and running rigging is the only area where there is a difference and that is a once a decade expendature, amounting to a 25% differential. So you get a job for 3 months and offset the difference.

I heard these horror stories for years. They kept me from upgrading for longer than I should have. For a few years now I have lived large, and guess what? I havn't seen any difference, except that I actually enjoy sailing in inclement conditions and have enough room to have 8 people over for Thanksgiving dinner.

Most people who get excited about this concept have either not experienced the difference, or cant afford to experience the difference. Today is the best market I have ever seen for affordable large sailboats, if you can pull it off, dont hesitate.
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Old 21-02-2011, 16:36   #66
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Re: Larger vs Smaller Boat

Steady Mark,

I have followed very informative posts on numerous threads by both you and Nick and picked up a lot of good information from you both that will assist me in fitting out my vessel down the track.

You are both very experienced cruisers with lots of maintainance and systems experience with different vessels.

A small multihull and a largish monohull. Both have made different and opposing viewpoints and all good. In the end we are all different and make differing choices.

I am heading down the multihull track with a larger vessel (new design 46ft cat) with systems similar to Nick's. The trick is to make sure the ships systems are simple, reliable , accessible and reparairable.

I hope you both can meet up in the San Blass sooner rather than later.

john
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Old 21-02-2011, 17:14   #67
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Re: Larger vs Smaller Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevensuf View Post
I think ill be tossing a coin at this rate One issue thats not been discussed much is the speed benefit of a larger boat,the extra 1.2n would make a fair difference on longer legs. bigger being more comfortable at anchor as well as in motion.
G'Day Steven,

Actually, the size difference that you are agonizing over isn't all that great. There will certainly not be a 1.2 knot difference in their hull speeds. You haven't mentioned the difference in their LWL's, but if they scale normally, the difference might be closer to .3 to .4 knots. The specific design will have more effect on speed than small differences in length, and for passages, how hard you are willing to drive the boat makes the most important improvements or losses in miles made good.

And for Mark Johnson... why can't you grasp that it is indeed possible to have a larger boat that is not loaded with the things that upset you so much. Yes,
some things in larger boats are inherently dearer, but it is not required that one equate size with complexity and expense of systems. Recently in these pages a Catalina 27 was featured that had WAY more "stuff" on it than our 46 foot cruising boat. The OP wasn't asking for advice about "small and simple" vs. "large and complex", he was comparing two fairly large production boats, both of which seemed to be equipped with lots of "stuff"... one somewhat more than the other.

And Mark, there are some of us out cruising in moderately large boats that: don't use marinas, do all our own maintenance, go to and stay for long periods in 3rd world areas, have simple systems on board, have fairly small engines and in general try to have a smallish footprint on the places we visit. Could we do the same things in a smaller boat? Sure! Ann and I cruised full time for 17 years in a 36' retired race boat with very simple systems. Did we have a good time? You bet we did. Would we choose to return to that boat because it was a couple of thousand dollars a year cheaper to run? Hell no. If we were on a more frugal budget, perhaps so... but again, that's not what the OP was on about.

Cheers,

Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II lying Morning Cove, NSW, Oz
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Old 21-02-2011, 17:44   #68
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Re: Larger vs Smaller Boat

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Actually, the size difference that you are agonizing over isn't all that great. There will certainly not be a 1.2 knot difference in their hull speeds. You haven't mentioned the difference in their LWL's, but if they scale normally, the difference might be closer to .3 to .4 knots.
Just had to check this out to make certain Jim's guess was correct, since the waterline difference on the two boats is 4.27 feet. The theoretical hull speed for the 46 would be 8.46 and for the 50 Vision would be 8.9. Difference is .44 knots.
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Old 21-02-2011, 17:54   #69
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Re: Larger vs Smaller Boat

a bit more data: total sail area on the 46 cruiser is 1,235 square feet; for the vision 50 = 1,371. Which means that the combined difference, both sails, is only 136 square feet. That's not going to result in a significant price difference when you purchase sails.
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Old 21-02-2011, 19:38   #70
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Re: Larger vs Smaller Boat

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G'Day Steven,

Actually, the size difference that you are agonizing over isn't all that great. There will certainly not be a 1.2 knot difference in their hull speeds. You haven't mentioned the difference in their LWL's, but if they scale normally, the difference might be closer to .3 to .4 knots. The specific design will have more effect on speed than small differences in length, and for passages, how hard you are willing to drive the boat makes the most important improvements or losses in miles made good.

And for Mark Johnson... why can't you grasp that it is indeed possible to have a larger boat that is not loaded with the things that upset you so much. Yes,
some things in larger boats are inherently dearer, but it is not required that one equate size with complexity and expense of systems. Recently in these pages a Catalina 27 was featured that had WAY more "stuff" on it than our 46 foot cruising boat. The OP wasn't asking for advice about "small and simple" vs. "large and complex", he was comparing two fairly large production boats, both of which seemed to be equipped with lots of "stuff"... one somewhat more than the other.

And Mark, there are some of us out cruising in moderately large boats that: don't use marinas, do all our own maintenance, go to and stay for long periods in 3rd world areas, have simple systems on board, have fairly small engines and in general try to have a smallish footprint on the places we visit. Could we do the same things in a smaller boat? Sure! Ann and I cruised full time for 17 years in a 36' retired race boat with very simple systems. Did we have a good time? You bet we did. Would we choose to return to that boat because it was a couple of thousand dollars a year cheaper to run? Hell no. If we were on a more frugal budget, perhaps so... but again, that's not what the OP was on about.

Cheers,

Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II lying Morning Cove, NSW, Oz
First off the question was a gross generalization, "Smaller or larger", and generalizations are always wrong unless you qualify what the context is. I should have qualified my response from the get go.

I took it from my own experience and point of view, which has been that my hundred or so cruising friends, all bitch and complain about their much smaller boats costing so much money, and I know none of them that can afford larger boats. In my case, I have had over 40 fractures in my youth, and even as an avid diver, I couldn't scrub the bottom of a much larger boat, and I certainly couldn't afford to hire it done.

To me, a larger boat is a 40'er VS a 35'er. In this size range the differences are dramatic. They go from one head to two, and one equipped cabin to two, etc... Prices to own and outfit triple!

My point of view is different because I don't know anyone with 45+ ' boats, any more. The few that I did know in the category, downsized drastically, as money or age forced them too. They are happier in smaller boats, got to extend their cruising years, and can once again afford to cruise. I don't know anyone who COULD move up from a 46 to a 50, so it is hard to imagine that not entailing HUGE financial hardship. (Thus my advise...) My one millionaire friend's boat, is just a 36, and he doesn't feel that he could move larger...

I know that larger boats, if kept simple, can lessen the sting a bit. But my friends BUILT their boats. One couple built a 54' trimaran, and could never afford to paint it all. They did bits of it very other year. The complete paint job would cost a fortune! So they cruised it, walking on eggs all the time, because if they lost her, they would be penniless in their upcoming old age. Just like ALL of my cruising friends over the years, they carry no hull insurance, because it would mean not going at all. THAT is how marginal it is for many if not most cruisers.

MY little 34 cost me $10,000 to paint, just for the yard bill, and the paint, (at my 50% off). I did ALL of it, and It took me a year! The painters in the same yard would have charged $30,000 to do it for me. I resent being told that larger doesn't cost more. Just check out the price of an AwlGrip job. Pros charge partly by the square foot!

I was also giving the point of view of the guy who has built, installed and maintained systems on boats professionally for 40 years, as well as the three multihulls that took me 21 years to build. I give these guys with the big boats the bill! I know for a fact that they are exponentially more expensive to say, have a windlass installed... IN GENERAL, if you are talking about standard production boats, equipped the way that their size is GENERALLY equipped.

For pretty much 98% of all the folks here in the boating capitol of NC, with maybe 100 marinas and ten thousand boats, to think of a 46' boat not costing more to own than their 36'er, and the little extra money would be worth the extra comfort... Man, we walk in different circles!

The properly qualified point from the get go, was: "For the rest of us, who work our asses off every day, earning money or maintaining our funkey old boats, just to continue to pursue our passion... In choosing a boat...

Go as simple as possible.

Unless you are a wizard at electronics & systems, minimize both.

Do your own work, or don't leave the beaten path. AND...

Figure what size will just fill your needs for space, comfort, payload, speed, seaworthiness, etc and get that size boat... NOT larger than you can really afford. The folks who do, never go, because they never get the cruising Kitty together.

You may think, "Who would try to live beyond their means"? ALMOST everyone tries...

Even you guys who have the means for a 50' boat, my lifetime of observation is that even you would have a more rewarding cruising experience with say, a 45'er. It forces you to get closer to the people, places, and cultures that you sailed there to see.

I was only trying to help here, not step on any toes. M.
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Old 21-02-2011, 19:56   #71
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Re: Larger vs Smaller Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevensuf View Post

(...)

But id rather have a 4 year old 50 foot bavaria than 20 years old 35ft halberg rassy or the like for the same money

(...)

and id rather be caught out in a gale in a 50 foot boat than a 35 foot boat.

(...)
The upper statement probably correct - the Bav being either a bargain (sell Bav buy proper boat+invest the surpluss OR live aboard). The other possibility the Bav being a writeoff. (Or else we are talking of a very expensive 35 - because a 20 y.o. HR will not cost as much as a 4 y.o. Bav 50 ...).

The lower statement disputable. I have sailed boats from 26 to 54 feet in storm conditions. Bav 42 (maybe 43, cannot tell) was one of the worst.

b.
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Old 21-02-2011, 19:58   #72
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Re: Larger vs Smaller Boat

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Even you guys who have the means for a 50' boat, my lifetime of observation is that even you would have a more rewarding cruising experience with say, a 45'er. It forces you to get closer to the people, places, and cultures that you sailed there to see.

I was only trying to help here, not step on any toes. M.
Mark,

I, for one, appreciate your arguments.

There is a spiritual side of cruising that we rarely address on this forum, and you have addressed it in your last post. Go simple. Get closer to the people. Don't overextend your means or abilities. Values are being expressed here that could add to the cruising/boating experience of everyone on this forum.

Thanks for your persistence in bringing these values into our conversation.
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Old 21-02-2011, 20:31   #73
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Re: Larger vs Smaller Boat

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Mark,

(...)

Go simple. Get closer to the people.

(...)
Maybe. Maybe not.

In a place where locals are fine, it is fine. But I'd rather be in a big and intimidating boat, where they are not quite so fine.

b.
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Old 22-02-2011, 15:15   #74
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Re: Larger vs Smaller Boat



Quote:
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My point of view is different because I don't know anyone with 45+ ' boats, any more. The few that I did know in the category, downsized drastically, as money or age forced them too. They are happier in smaller boats, got to extend their cruising years, and can once again afford to cruise. I don't know anyone who COULD move up from a 46 to a 50, so it is hard to imagine that not entailing HUGE financial hardship. (Thus my advise...) My one millionaire friend's boat, is just a 36, and he doesn't feel that he could move larger...
That's just hilarious... where in the world are you to not know anybody with a 45'+ boat?! In the Caribbean 45'+ is the majority of boats.

I also disagree that age is a factor. The older you get, the more comfort you want/require. When I'm 70 I don't want to go uphill soaking wet and miserable anymore, while young people tend to care much less about that.

Quote:
One couple built a 54' trimaran, and could never afford to paint it all. They did bits of it very other year.
Yes, that's stupid. Fully agree that you must buy or build what you can afford.

Quote:
MY little 34 cost me $10,000 to paint, just for the yard bill, and the paint, (at my 50% off). I did ALL of it, and It took me a year! The painters in the same yard would have charged $30,000 to do it for me. I resent being told that larger doesn't cost more. Just check out the price of an AwlGrip job.
You can resent it what you want, but meanwhile you have spent $10k on paint and I spent $0 on paint. When the time comes for me to paint the hull, I will sail to Trinidad and get it done for the same price you pay for a 35' boat. In 2005 a Centurion 47 had a complete awlgrip job, incl. all the prep work, primer, pigment and clearcoat, done for $22,000 in Chaguaramas, Trinidad.

Quote:
The properly qualified point from the get go, was: "For the rest of us, who work our asses off every day, earning money or maintaining our funkey old boats, just to continue to pursue our passion... In choosing a boat...
wtf lol You think I didn't work my ass off every day to earn my money? or work my ass off now to maintain my bigger old boat? You think my mom is the Queen or something?

Quote:
Even you guys who have the means for a 50' boat, my lifetime of observation is that even you would have a more rewarding cruising experience with say, a 45'er. It forces you to get closer to the people, places, and cultures that you sailed there to see.
ha! so just because a boat is 5' longer you don't get close to the people and culture? You're seriously mistaking because it is about the people, not their boat. When I sailed my 30 footer, the only thing that was different was the boat... and I was drying the mattresses after a sail.

When we hook up with other cruisers they mostly have 47' or smaller boats (incl. 30') so I guess that many bigger boats have the kind of people aboard that you are comparing me with. Your mistake is that if you would put those people on a 35' boat they would still be the same arrogant sob's because like I said, the boat is just the boat; it's the people and their attitude that counts.

ps. about the thru-hull and expensive manifolds; here's a good example, cost: $12 incl the valves

cheers,
Nick.
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Old 22-02-2011, 15:50   #75
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Re: Larger vs Smaller Boat

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my mom is the Queen
Wow!


Me is thinking of simply getting a retractable bowsprit..............so I can fit into all possible social circumstances. Sir.

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