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Old 19-02-2011, 12:31   #31
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I cant quite get my head over which to go for, smaller more spending money, larger more space newer boat aircon....mmm aircon... less spending money..

..
go big, go newer
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Old 19-02-2011, 12:38   #32
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I will be with my other half and more likely will have friends and family aboard at various stages
Sounds ok.... Imagine a brief period when it is you and the "Other Half"....

On the smaller yacht - you can still progress...

Do not get too excited about A/C, I live in the Middle East, and frankly anything below 20C now means I need to put on a jumper (ok alcohol and being here 20 years have a bearing on this also ) But A/C is only going to be a viable option where you are alongside, and in a large yacht this will be $$$$$'s - Maybe not in the Far East, but the Med I think you will find to be quite frightening.

All the gear on the larger yacht will be more expensive to replace/refit/service

I've a 45 Ft..... I could not afford anything bigger, and even now I wish I had something smaller and cheaper. !!
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Old 19-02-2011, 13:14   #33
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All the gear on the larger yacht will be more expensive to replace/refit/service
So, your Jabsco water pump is less expensive than mine? Stove? fridge compressor? This is just a statement that isn't true.

There are only few items more expensive to replace: the engine and some winches, windlass, anchor. That's it.

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Old 19-02-2011, 15:16   #34
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So, your Jabsco water pump is less expensive than mine? Stove? fridge compressor? This is just a statement that isn't true.

There are only few items more expensive to replace: the engine and some winches, windlass, anchor. That's it.

cheers,
Nick.
Not the common point of view, but sums it up pretty well.

Another couple of buckets of bottom paint and haulout fee would be in there somewhere too.

I was talking to a guy working in a popular boatyard a while back and he was saying they have to look at the minimum they must get for every haulout, which sometimes meant smaller boats got 'essential' work done so the minimums could be billed.
They couldn't make it work every time, but often through hulls were replaced, glands packed, etc. They did do the work, it just often wasn't necessary work.

On the bigger boats their haulout minimums were usually covered by the haulout fee/ft so a more honest total billing was the result.
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Old 19-02-2011, 16:30   #35
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Bigger and more toys is better (overall / on average / blah blah)..........but not if it means you are living on baked beans tied to the dock due to lack of money to do what you want ...............and could have done with a cheaper (and still very nice)boat.

That's why my "Vote" was boat C - the slightly smaller (and cheaper to buy & run) one, with all the toys........which you haven't seen yet.
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Old 19-02-2011, 19:05   #36
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Just like being house poor, you don't want to be boat poor. If you can afford the bigger boat, take it, if money is a concern, take the smaller boat.
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Old 20-02-2011, 06:22   #37
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well said...
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Old 20-02-2011, 08:58   #38
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Not much to compare between a 46' and a 52' boat. You can compare only if they are similar design, otherwise any can be better or worse for the job at hand, bigger or smaller inside, cheaper or more expensive in the marina and boatyard, etc..

I would say get the boat that will be your joy. One you like, one you always dreamt of, the one that will do the job you will ask her to do. A Bavaria if you want to live in the marina, an IMOCA or Dashew or S&S if you want to sail, etc..

Get the one that is the best tool for the planned use.

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Old 20-02-2011, 09:26   #39
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About 10% or so of the arc boats were bavarias, granted maybe not the best tool for the job, but it still does the job, id rather have the large ford than the small bmw.
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Old 20-02-2011, 12:08   #40
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About 10% or so of the arc boats were bavarias, granted maybe not the best tool for the job, but it still does the job, id rather have the large ford than the small bmw.
And I'd rather have the best tool for the job. If I could afford it.

I would say for the job of sailing from EU to Caribbean, downwind and in the good season a Bavaria will be more than adequate.

The ARC is not much different from sitting your time out in a marina, except the booze runs out at a time which seems to piss off some of participants. As if they did not go out there to do some sailing.

I have been wondering how many Bavarias made the Southern Ocean RTW? And why the Oz girl picked up and old S&S over a newer and cheaper Bav. Perhaps 'cheaper' explains something here.

;-)))

No offense intended for Bavarians though. Bavarias are great marina queens and good boats for easy ocean sailing. Especially new and fully insured Bavarias.

I only meant the best tool for each particular job - Bavaria for some jobs S&S for other kind of jobs.

b.
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Old 20-02-2011, 14:33   #41
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Hey im not arguing, im well aware of its limitations, but i wont be heading for the capes in it. But id rather have a 4 year old 50 foot bavaria than 20 years old 35ft halberg rassy or the like for the same money, and id rather be caught out in a gale in a 50 foot boat than a 35 foot boat. Im sure a 50ft good seafaring boat would outperform a 50ft bavaria, but hey it would cost 3 x as much. When i were a lad back in days of horse n carts i worked in the north sea on a fishing boat, only 35foot, and seen waves , well slightly breaking swell easily over 40 foot, but hey a skipper with 10k of prawns in the hold with no refirigeration (only ice) aint holing up to wait out the storm. All i'm saying is i am well aware of what the ocean can throw up and would rather do my best to avoid it Nb the vision model has almost 38% ballast ratio and a fairly high avs (mostly due to raised coach roof id imagine) stix not bad as well. oh and the bow is kevlar reinforced, as is the keel support area. but yeah they are cheaply finished .
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Old 20-02-2011, 16:05   #42
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nb i think a decent series drogue on reinforced mounts would work well even in a bavaria.
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Old 20-02-2011, 17:03   #43
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Our little homemade, plywood 34'er is equipped with all of the comforts... windlass, watermaker, radar, ssb, vhf, pressure water, GPS interfaced with computer navigation, refrigeration, huge galley area, dozens of fans and low consumption lights, flat screen TV with sound through the stereo, Etc... Being low consumption, small, lightweight versions of these things, our solar panels provide 100% of our power needs.

We carry a RIB, spare kayak, scuba tank, 4 anchors full awning, spinnaker, etc.

I have installed these systems as avocation and vocation for 40 years... With only a few exceptions, the items I listed are a fraction of the size, weight, and cost, of the similar items that you would find on a boat the size that you are talking about. A 46 to 50'+ boat with all of the bells and whistles, is exponentially more expensive than a smaller 42' boat!!! The difference in purchase price, is a small fraction of the difference to own the boat over the years. Larger more complicated boats, are harder to scrub, find an appropriate anchorage for, or get dockage. If it is loaded down with systems that you didn't install yourself, you could end up with a never ending maintenance nightmare, requiring that you never go off of the beaten path.

While the time spent at sea is certainly more comfortable, I have found that my 98% of the time spent at anchor, I was more comfortable than the boats twice my size, because of my shallow draft and how much closer to the windward beach that I can get.

If you plan on mostly pre-arranged, first world, marina destinations... and can afford the larger boat, go for it.

I have had a number of friends however, who had no idea how much more hassle a boat becomes, as it gets close to 50', only to get divorced, and sell the boat at a loss.

You probably know exactly what you are doing, and I don't mean to be presumptuous, but I work on those systems. Compared to my little 34'er, a 42 or 43'er would be HUGE! The systems get SO much more expensive and complicated to install and own. You should try to run "00" size wire for a windlass!

Just a small boat cruisers point of view... "The smallest boat that serves your needs, is less hassle to own, and more fun".

Mark
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Old 20-02-2011, 17:25   #44
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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
So, your Jabsco water pump is less expensive than mine? Stove? fridge compressor? This is just a statement that isn't true.

There are only few items more expensive to replace: the engine and some winches, windlass, anchor. That's it.

cheers,
Nick.
except for:

sails running rigging, standing rigging, every bit of hardware....

toilet, stove and fridge system are about the only things that will cost the same on boats of different size...
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Old 20-02-2011, 20:34   #45
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Re: Larger vs Smaller Boat

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But id rather have a 4 year old 50 foot bavaria than 20 years old 35ft halberg rassy or the like for the same money, and id rather be caught out in a gale in a 50 foot boat than a 35 foot boat.
I'm not so sure about that. I have seen 52' Irwins reduced to scrap in minutes in a storm where 35' HRs and comparable designs were safe and sound. Bigger is only better when the other factors are equal.

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Originally Posted by stevensuf View Post
nb i think a decent series drogue on reinforced mounts would work well even in a bavaria.
I don't think so. Modern, light designs do much better when actively sailed and steered. The drogues are for the older, heavy displacement, full keel, skeg hung rudder or other barn-door setups. Not that I know about this for a Bavaria specifically but it does qualify at least.

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Our little homemade, plywood 34'er is equipped with all of the comforts... windlass, watermaker, radar, ssb, vhf, pressure water, GPS interfaced with computer navigation, refrigeration, huge galley area, dozens of fans and low consumption lights, flat screen TV with sound through the stereo, Etc...
[...]
With only a few exceptions, the items I listed are a fraction of the size, weight, and cost, of the similar items that you would find on a boat the size that you are talking about.
So, why does your watermaker, radar, ssb, vhf, pressure water, GPS, computer, fridge, fans, lights, TV and stereo weight less and cst less than mine? Did you buy a cheaper/lighter brand? Don't think so... this stuff is all the same. The only item you list that is indeed more expensive on a bigger boat is the windlass.

Quote:
Larger more complicated boats, are harder to scrub, find an appropriate anchorage for, or get dockage.
I will argue that the opposite is true! Larger does not equal more complicated; they are easier to scrub, MUCH easier to find a suitable anchorage for and, while more expensive, finding dockage is also easier for a bigger boat because all the marinas target 50' and up and rather not have anything smaller.

Quote:
While the time spent at sea is certainly more comfortable, I have found that my 98% of the time spent at anchor, I was more comfortable than the boats twice my size, because of my shallow draft and how much closer to the windward beach that I can get.
I think that has more to do with draft so a cat or tri will win that. But the bigger, the more comfort at anchor for the same conditions. My 64' boat has 6'2" draft. How much further does that put me away from the beach than a 42' monohull? 10'? 20'?

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Originally Posted by pressuredrop View Post
except for:

sails running rigging, standing rigging, every bit of hardware....

toilet, stove and fridge system are about the only things that will cost the same on boats of different size...
Did you calculate that? I had all my rigging replaced for $3,400 (ketch so almost double of a sloop). Let's say a 40' ketch pays $2,000 instead. The difference is $1,400 divided over the 15 year lifespan is $93 a year. This is such a small difference that it only shows it's well worth it to go for the bigger boat.

Price is a strange thing: many sailors tell me they wish they could afford a Sundeer 64. I often need to tell them that their 46' or 47' boat cost a bunch more than mine.

cheers,
Nick.
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