Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 23-01-2014, 12:37   #46
Moderator
 
JPA Cate's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: aboard, cruising in Australia
Boat: Sayer 46' Solent rig sloop
Posts: 10,663
Re: Large genoa on cutter: what does it mean?

Hi, everyone,

I just re-visited this thread, and discovered that I had misquoted Tacoma Sailor, who wrote, "we never sail upwind." I apologize for rendering that as "cruisers never sail to windward." In the Tuamotus, we met a British sailor who said, "we never sail to windward...however, we frequently change destinations," and that's certainly one strategy.

Anyhow, as I said, I just came back, and had a different take on the answers based on the title of the thread.

I think the large genoa on the cutter means that the owner wanted better performance on the wind, and had a chat to the sailmaker. The large genoa was the result of that conversation. Whaddaya think?

Ann
__________________

__________________
Ann, with Jim, aboard US s/v Insatiable II, in Oz, very long term cruisers
JPA Cate is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 23-01-2014, 13:31   #47
Registered User
 
RainDog's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Varies
Boat: Pacific Seacraft 34 #142
Posts: 1,183
Re: Large genoa on cutter: what does it mean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by snaggletooth View Post
That beautiful Nicholson is a ketch. It happens to be a ketch that flies a staysail inside the jib. Kind of like a sloop that flies a staysail is called a "sloop" and not a "sloop-cutter". As has been pointed out here several times by other posters just adding a staysail to a sloop does not make it a cutter. It's still a sloop. Adding a staysail to a ketch does not alter the fact that the name of that rig is still a "ketch".

Not sure this is very important to anyone but me. I'm just a stickler for correct terminology.
Both "Cutter-Rigged Sloop" and "Cutter-Rigged Ketch" are standard terms that are used all the time. Nothing new in either name.

The point of language it to communicate ideas clearly. Ketch and Cutter-Rigged Ketch are different things, so have different names to communicate that difference.
__________________

RainDog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-01-2014, 15:15   #48
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Jupiter FL
Boat: temporarily boatless...
Posts: 723
Re: Large genoa on cutter: what does it mean?

This has been one of the more useful threads (for me) that I've ever started. Thanks a lot everyone for a lot of great information. As I mentioned in the original post, my rationale in looking at cutters was smaller, more manageable foresails when I am single handed. From what I gather, most people flying a yankee or small jib (110 or so) believe that they are not losing much in performance in return for greater manageability, which is what I was hoping to hear. I was just confused by the fact that virtually everything I have looked at (and they are all "true cutters") has had a 130 or 140. Anyway, as I said, thanks to everyone for a lot of great input, I feel like I have a much better understanding. Best, Pete
__________________
pete33458 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 23-01-2014, 15:34   #49
Registered User
 
RainDog's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Varies
Boat: Pacific Seacraft 34 #142
Posts: 1,183
Re: Large genoa on cutter: what does it mean?

I am also getting a lot of great info from this thread. Thanks to every one. I am about to get a whole new sail wardrobe, so this is good timing.

My boat came with a 135. I really don't like it. For sure will be switching to a Yankee when I order my new sails. This seems to be the majority opinion here. Unlike many, I use my staysail almost 100% of the time in winds < 20k and have the stay permanently rigged. I do not have much trouble tacking the 135 through the slot.

I think if you want to sail in all conditions, you do need a giant sail of some sort. I already have an Asym and would like to add a drifter too at some point. I figure the drifter will be perfect for upwind work when the wind is < 12 and the yankee will be plenty in anything over 12. My current genoa is really too heavy once the wind gets 6-8 knots. I am thinking a drifter would extend my upwind sailing range down to 4-5 knot winds. The am hoping the drifter will also pack smaller than my 135.
RainDog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-01-2014, 16:44   #50
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Westin LIS
Posts: 50
Re: Large genoa on cutter: what does it mean?

I'm getting this.

I understand the cutter-schooner, just never heard of one.

But, if I understand correctly a cutter that never flies a staysail and only uses a genoa is really called a "sloop-cutter"?

Or a ketch that never flies the mizzen, and there are some, is called a "sloop-ketch"?
Unless it has two headsails and doesn't fly the mizzen then it's a,,, wait,,, "cutter-sloop-ketch"?

There were some Cape Cod Catboats that flew small jibs., They were called Catboats. But what did those old guys know anyway?
__________________
snaggletooth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-01-2014, 17:11   #51
Senior Cruiser
 
Cheechako's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 19,342
Re: Large genoa on cutter: what does it mean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hud3 View Post
One of the nice things about a smaller, high clew headsail is that with foam or rope luff pads it retains a pretty good shape when partially furled. My prefered combo when close reaching in 45-50 kts was triple reefed main, staysail and 110% yankee rolled up to where it slightly overlapped the staysail. Some call that a "spitfire" rig.
__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard











Cheechako is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 23-01-2014, 17:13   #52
Senior Cruiser
 
Cheechako's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 19,342
Re: Large genoa on cutter: what does it mean?

At risk of starting another sematics diatribe.....A word of caution: A yankee is not necessarily a 110-120 genoa. Even if the Genoa is a little high cut. My personal opinion is that a 110-115% high clew (reachable from deck) is a good option. Here is what I learned were the differences: (I could be totally wrong according to your sailmaker I suppose) First the Yankee pic then the high-ish cut Genny.
__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard











Cheechako is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 23-01-2014, 17:16   #53
Registered User

Join Date: May 2009
Location: holland michigan
Boat: Gulfstar 50 ketch
Posts: 456
Images: 3
Re: Large genoa on cutter: what does it mean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RainDog View Post
I am also getting a lot of great info from this thread. Thanks to every one. I am about to get a whole new sail wardrobe, so this is good timing.

My boat came with a 135. I really don't like it. For sure will be switching to a Yankee when I order my new sails. This seems to be the majority opinion here. Unlike many, I use my staysail almost 100% of the time in winds < 20k and have the stay permanently rigged. I do not have much trouble tacking the 135 through the slot.

I think if you want to sail in all conditions, you do need a giant sail of some sort. I already have an Asym and would like to add a drifter too at some point. I figure the drifter will be perfect for upwind work when the wind is < 12 and the yankee will be plenty in anything over 12. My current genoa is really too heavy once the wind gets 6-8 knots. I am thinking a drifter would extend my upwind sailing range down to 4-5 knot winds. The am hoping the drifter will also pack smaller than my 135.
That was my plan on my H37c I used to have. I had a large roach main, a battened oversized staysail and a low clew 135. For heavier air I had a stock size staysail. For lighter air, a drifter for upwind and a spinnaker for down.
The big main and staysail worked so well I would have gone to a 120% and a little higher clew sail.
__________________
ctl411 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-01-2014, 17:43   #54
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Westin LIS
Posts: 50
Re: Large genoa on cutter: what does it mean?

I am gettng this:
Slooch
Kloop
Sletch
Slutter

But what the heck is a "true cutter"? You guys use that term a lot. I kind of think I know but I have this friend. He calls his boat a true cutter ( well known double ender) but I have this fear that his boat is really a faux cutter. I don't want to call him on this until I have a firm understanding of the term, "true cutter".
__________________
snaggletooth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-01-2014, 17:53   #55
Senior Cruiser
 
Cheechako's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 19,342
Re: Large genoa on cutter: what does it mean?

A true cutter is defined by where the mast is. I believe it's 50% back..based on waterline?.... further aft than a sloop... which may be 40% back etc. On the cutter this allows for the proper slot between the two headsails as well as some balance issues.
__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard











Cheechako is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 23-01-2014, 17:54   #56
Registered User

Join Date: May 2009
Location: holland michigan
Boat: Gulfstar 50 ketch
Posts: 456
Images: 3
Re: Large genoa on cutter: what does it mean?

"True cutter" mast is aft of station 4.
__________________
ctl411 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-01-2014, 17:58   #57
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Westin LIS
Posts: 50
Re: Large genoa on cutter: what does it mean?

50% aft? Wow, that's a lot. Heck at 50% it's almost a mizzen.
40% aft? That way different than 50%
You guys have to help me. Can you narrow it down a bit?

"Station"? Do you mean "stanchions"? You know, I can see that. Aft of the fourth stanchion.
__________________
snaggletooth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-01-2014, 18:04   #58
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: UK/Portugal
Posts: 20,189
Images: 2
Send a message via Skype™ to boatman61
pirate Re: Large genoa on cutter: what does it mean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by snaggletooth View Post
50% aft? Wow, that's a lot. Heck at 50% it's almost a mizzen.
40% aft? That way different than 50%
You guys have to help me. Can you narrow it down a bit?

"Station"? Do you mean "stanchions"? You know, I can see that. Aft of the fourth stanchion.
Unless its a 30ftr with only 3 stanchions...
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 23-01-2014, 18:07   #59
Registered User

Join Date: May 2009
Location: holland michigan
Boat: Gulfstar 50 ketch
Posts: 456
Images: 3
Re: Large genoa on cutter: what does it mean?

No "station" is the term. Divide a boat by 10 stations. 0 is the bow waterline 10 is aft waterline. Cutters "true cutters" are at or around station 4. If the boat has a bowsprit maybe a little more forward. The line isn't written in stone.
__________________
ctl411 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-01-2014, 18:12   #60
Registered User

Join Date: May 2009
Location: holland michigan
Boat: Gulfstar 50 ketch
Posts: 456
Images: 3
Re: Large genoa on cutter: what does it mean?

Hey snags things slow over at SA?
__________________

__________________
ctl411 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
cutter, Genoa

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 14:14.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.