Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 20-08-2016, 14:40   #16
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 17,572
Re: KM Yachts, Makkum Holland

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
I just read an article about the Oyster 72 Katharsis II, which completed 45,000 nautical miles over a three year period including a successful Northwest passage.

'Curious... What exactly do you have planned that would require a more substantial "fitout?"
I never said that Oysters are not capable boats. On the contrary, of course they are wonderful. I would be sailing one myself if two successive purchase deals had not fallen through.

But they are sold very much on the basis of the cachet, image, and the very high quality fitout. That's all I was trying to say. They are "luxury goods", first and foremost. Leica is owned by Hermes, and the Nautor Swan yard is owned by Ferragamo. Oyster is owned by private equity (HTP Investments). These are all "luxury brands" where a very high percentage of the purchase price is plowed back into image-building, marketing, PR, etc. A company like Oyster would never skimp on the fitout - the things you see.
__________________

__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2016, 14:43   #17
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 17,572
Re: KM Yachts, Makkum Holland

Quote:
Originally Posted by poiu View Post
Re Oysters: Oi! wash your mouth out with soap!

For superlative joinery as well as custom built alu, Holland is really well provided for. Try Jongert, Claasens, Royal Huisman and Holland Jachtbouw.

I won't say anything about the prices.
Yes -- Royal Huisman in particular. Works of art.


KM is completely different from all those in approach and priorities.
__________________

__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2016, 19:12   #18
CF Adviser
 
Pelagic's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Boat: Van Helleman Schooner 65ft StarGazer
Posts: 6,161
Re: KM Yachts, Makkum Holland

Having spent many years there researching and overseeing large new builds.......I am a huge fan of the yacht building industry in Holland.

Their strength is in their small geographical size and an attitude of promoting competing Dutch builders and dutch subcontractors, over others nations.

By sharing the same contractors/suppliers they also share and improve the same knowledge base which translates into a stronger, more consistent end product.

You would be surprised how many of the same sub contractors who work for Royal Huisman, De Vries, Van Lent etc....also work with KM.
__________________
Pelagic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2016, 01:21   #19
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Harlingen, NL
Boat: KMY Stadtship 56
Posts: 173
Re: KM Yachts, Makkum Holland

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
So I spent the morning crawling around this facility with the owner, a surprisingly young guy.
He's been at it since 1996, so he's not that young anymore...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
He uses a 90% blade jib like I do and was waxing poetic about its virtues... he uses it on a Hoyt boom -- with a hydraulic vang. This solves the problem of how to deal with leech tension. Looks very cool. He says it is exceptionally good downwind because with the boom, he can spread it out to present maximum surface to the wind. I'm going to have to study this system some more.
We have the same system (and the same hull.) On a beam reach it is our "secret weapon", sails so beautifully. Watch and and . First two is our boat, last one is Oester. I got a Code 0 this year, but haven't really used it yet because it is only useful below 11-12 knots of wind. Anything above that and you might as well not bother and use the jib.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
From the point of view of structure and workmanship, this is exactly what I want in my next boat, and this yard is at the top of my list now.
That's what we thought in 2008. We ended up building there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
his pilot houses are not nice -- too small and with no forward-facing nav station. The interiors are cave-like and I did not like the Ikea-like fitouts.
You have sub-sampled and thereby inferred that the rest is like that? I hope not. As you say you get what you want. Some people want this, others that.

Look at this interior for a different take on what KM can do:
Bestevaer II interior, it has a front facing gimballed nav table, with what we dutchies call typical dutch interior but what is known as New England style in the rest of the world.

One of the downsides I guess is that these guys will cater to any interior whim that the owner has, their attitude is what the owner wants, he gets. One of the more extreme examples is this one: Anabel. The owner is a helicopter pilot with a distrust of computers, so he has full analogue controls for everything in the boat, and all devices such as inverters and water maker are out in the open in the interior (not in a closet, in the main saloon.)

I'm saying downside because their flexibility means that their interior is all over the place, unlike an Oyster etc., and they build to a group of owners who don't generally go for plush luxury.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Far less comfortable and pleasant than the interior of my own boat. But of course the beauty of working with a yard like this is that you get what you want, so you hire a designer who understands what that is.
It's also a matter of how much you want to spend on the interior. When we were in the investigative phase there I saw one interior I did not like and it was explained to me that that owner had a really low budget to do the interior. Then I saw some others that I liked the quality of but not the styling ...

So when we found that we had some special wishes they suggested to bring in an interior drawing office, and we worked very well together to make our dream come true. And they came through ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Now w're on passage towards Amsterdam, motoring in the Ijsselmeer against a strong wind (we can't leave the channel to tack).
Of course you can, you just have to get used to 1 or 2 feet under the keel. But it's all clay so in a bind you can just release the sheets and back out the way you came under engine.
__________________
merrimac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2016, 05:21   #20
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 17,572
Re: KM Yachts, Makkum Holland

Quote:
Originally Posted by merrimac View Post
He's been at it since 1996, so he's not that young anymore...


We have the same system (and the same hull.) On a beam reach it is our "secret weapon", sails so beautifully. Watch and and . First two is our boat, last one is Oester. I got a Code 0 this year, but haven't really used it yet because it is only useful below 11-12 knots of wind. Anything above that and you might as well not bother and use the jib.


That's what we thought in 2008. We ended up building there.


You have sub-sampled and thereby inferred that the rest is like that? I hope not. As you say you get what you want. Some people want this, others that.

Look at this interior for a different take on what KM can do:
Bestevaer II interior, it has a front facing gimballed nav table, with what we dutchies call typical dutch interior but what is known as New England style in the rest of the world.

One of the downsides I guess is that these guys will cater to any interior whim that the owner has, their attitude is what the owner wants, he gets. One of the more extreme examples is this one: Anabel. The owner is a helicopter pilot with a distrust of computers, so he has full analogue controls for everything in the boat, and all devices such as inverters and water maker are out in the open in the interior (not in a closet, in the main saloon.)

I'm saying downside because their flexibility means that their interior is all over the place, unlike an Oyster etc., and they build to a group of owners who don't generally go for plush luxury.


It's also a matter of how much you want to spend on the interior. When we were in the investigative phase there I saw one interior I did not like and it was explained to me that that owner had a really low budget to do the interior. Then I saw some others that I liked the quality of but not the styling ...

So when we found that we had some special wishes they suggested to bring in an interior drawing office, and we worked very well together to make our dream come true. And they came through ...



Of course you can, you just have to get used to 1 or 2 feet under the keel. But it's all clay so in a bind you can just release the sheets and back out the way you came under engine.
Thanks for this most interesting post.

Some random responses to various points:

You seem to have exactly the same rig as Oester including even the deep v shaped boom. This is really unfamiliar to me -- I know the Hoyt boom system only in the fixed boom angle version, and never liked it. But the hydraulic vang changes everything. I am presently using a three-dimensional sheet lead system for my blade jib, and have been amazed at what a great effect small changes of angle of attack of the sail have, produced by moving the sheet leads inboard and outboard. A control we lack with a normal jib car track system. I guess the boom takes that to an entirely different level. Where can I read more about that?

You don't have any traveler for the main, however -- how does that work? You use the vang exclusively to regulate leech tension, so that the mainsheet is only for boom angle? The traveler is the most important and most frequently used mainsail control on my boat -- I don't understand how to sail without it.

Nice looking sails in your videos. One thing I've learned with time -- spend your money on sails, and economize on everything else but that. I shake my head every time I see a million euro boat with crappy, worn-out sails on it. I don't actually condemn at all the person who saved money on his interior fitout, but went to the trouble to have the best structure available on his boat, and has good sails. First things first!


Concerning your Code 0 -- this has been next on my list of sails to add to my inventory, but now I'm starting to wonder whether it's the right choice -- I've discovered, to my surprise, that the blade jib produces just as much power as my much bigger 120% overlapping yankee in light winds so long as the wind is ahead of the beam. Even down to 5 or 6 knots of wind, I can sail at more than 2/3 of true wind speed with the blade, as long as the wind is ahead of the beam. So I only need help for downwind sailing in light winds. I'm starting to think that maybe a parasailor would be more useful.


Concerning the famous Bestaever "Helicopter Boat" -- I actually like it! Cannot possibly have been worth the cost except as a lark, but I am passionate about having data about everything possible going on in the boat. I have a great deal of instrumentation and a great variety of different sensors and measuring devices, on my present boat. I do use computer, however

Concerning interiors -- why don't you post some photos of the interior of your boat? Another data point.


Concerning Ijsselmeer -- sailing hard with 30cm of water under the keel?? Eek! But the charts show random shallow places, not specifically located. Also the water level varies. I really don't fancy bashing into the ground at 9 or 10 knots -- my lead bulb would probably bury itself, and then I'd really be stuffed.

We ended up diverting to Enkhuizen (lovely place; a serendipitous diversion) because I couldn't stand thrashing the diesel any more, and I left the boat there until Wednesday so I could fly out on business.

We usually pass Holland by (sailing nonstop Solent -- Helgoland), and before this the only Dutch ports I knew were Den Helder, Scheveningen, and Ijmuiden. Now I am intrigued, also reminded what a fundamentally lovely country Holland is, and will try to find time to explore these places more next year. Our vessel with nearly 2.5m draft is maybe not the best instrument for that.
__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2016, 06:26   #21
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Harlingen, NL
Boat: KMY Stadtship 56
Posts: 173
Re: KM Yachts, Makkum Holland

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Thanks for this most interesting post.

Some random responses to various points:

You seem to have exactly the same rig as Oester including even the deep v shaped boom. This is really unfamiliar to me -- I know the Hoyt boom system only in the fixed boom angle version, and never liked it. But the hydraulic vang changes everything. I am presently using a three-dimensional sheet lead system for my blade jib, and have been amazed at what a great effect small changes of angle of attack of the sail have, produced by moving the sheet leads inboard and outboard. A control we lack with a normal jib car track system. I guess the boom takes that to an entirely different level. Where can I read more about that?
I think Oester was the first one world wide to use a hydraulic vang for this purpose, and you are right it changes everything. Obviously there is a separate outhaul and sheet, and the combination allows us to control the jib the same way as a mainsail. The advantage of the Hoyt boom over your solution is that you can have the lead point outside the hull. Makes sail handling a doddle. After some practice I'm now also able to have it swing over when sailing downwind and sail goose winged, without even leaving the cockpit.

Quote:
You don't have any traveler for the main, however -- how does that work? You use the vang exclusively to regulate leech tension, so that the mainsheet is only for boom angle? The traveler is the most important and most frequently used mainsail control on my boat -- I don't understand how to sail without it.
That V boom is so immensely strong it can handle it. We sail with three lines going to the strongest point where the boom is highest: one kicker and two preventers. The preventers are permanently rigged (when sailing, we do clear them away when in harbour, especially when folks need to pass over our deck.) With five lines controlling left/right/down/up/down (preventer/preventer/kicker/topping lift/mainsheet) we're able to control the boom in any way we want. Gybes become an easy process as well.

We came from a boat with a traveller but with these tools we don't miss it at all.

There is no vang as we actually LOWER the boom at the gooseneck end! This way the TOP of the sail stack is only about 1m70 above deck when dousing the sail, so it is extremely easy to reach. Removes complication from switch track and still makes sail very reachable. I should make a video of that.

KM built that boom out of aluminium and it came in at 180 kg. The spec for a carbon boom of that strength and length is 160 kg. It's the wrong shape (not round or oval) for carbon.

Quote:
Nice looking sails in your videos. One thing I've learned with time -- spend your money on sails, and economize on everything else but that. I shake my head every time I see a million euro boat with crappy, worn-out sails on it. I don't actually condemn at all the person who saved money on his interior fitout, but went to the trouble to have the best structure available on his boat, and has good sails. First things first!
Couldn't agree more. Ours are all from UK sails, very nice people to work with. I held a "beauty contest" where I described my sailing style + area + expectations and then chose the sailmaker that understood me best and offered the best advice (I hope!) Of course this all depends on who you talk to, a different location may be different.

Quote:
Concerning your Code 0 -- this has been next on my list of sails to add to my inventory, but now I'm starting to wonder whether it's the right choice -- I've discovered, to my surprise, that the blade jib produces just as much power as my much bigger 120% overlapping yankee in light winds so long as the wind is ahead of the beam. Even down to 5 or 6 knots of wind, I can sail at more than 2/3 of true wind speed with the blade, as long as the wind is ahead of the beam. So I only need help for downwind sailing in light winds. I'm starting to think that maybe a parasailor would be more useful.
We have a gennaker, but last year we sailed from NL via Portugal to the Azores and back via UK in very light winds, and when the boat is in a swell you can't keep the genny filled. Maybe the wing in the parasailor would help with that, but I also feel that these sails get too big for a couple to handle with just 1 person on the foredeck. Our gennaker is 300m2! The C0 will help for these circumstances and is a doddle to handle (it's on a furler, and is "only" 150 m2)! Now this year on the Northsea there wasn't any swell, and we were either racing (and entered without C0) or it there was plenty of wind.

Quote:
Concerning the famous Bestaever "Helicopter Boat" -- I actually like it! Cannot possibly have been worth the cost except as a lark, but I am passionate about having data about everything possible going on in the boat. I have a great deal of instrumentation and a great variety of different sensors and measuring devices, on my present boat. I do use computer, however
Ah, we think alike. I measure everything. See an old post of mine regarding the original CANboat. I reverse engineered NMEA 2000 to log and distribute sail data (the current CANboat.) This has evolved into Signal K, really.

Quote:
Concerning interiors -- why don't you post some photos of the interior of your boat? Another data point.
You should have come to last year's Southampton Boat Show, we were there and feedback from most people is that they thought she was very lovely, better than the O**** on show. Then we told people she was in her 6th season and they would be seriously impressed.

I'll post some photo's soon.

Also, we're at the KM Open Day earch April. In fact that is how we met SWL and Noelex.

Quote:
Concerning Ijsselmeer -- sailing hard with 30cm of water under the keel?? Eek! But the charts show random shallow places, not specifically located. Also the water level varies. I really don't fancy bashing into the ground at 9 or 10 knots -- my lead bulb would probably bury itself, and then I'd really be stuffed.
Heh, even we have to re-adjust back to the IJsselmeer when we go there, we usually stay on the Waddenzee. We're not worried about depths anymore though -- our draft can be reduced to 85 cm. Drying out is such fun.

Quote:
Our vessel with nearly 2.5m draft is maybe not the best instrument for that.
Nope, she isn't. IJsselmeer folks tend to stop at 2.0m / 2.1m because most harbours don't cater for more than that either. So get a variable draft KM boat first :whistle:
__________________
merrimac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2016, 06:50   #22
Registered User
 
DDabs's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Caribbean
Boat: Caliber 40LRC
Posts: 1,489
Images: 16
Re: KM Yachts, Makkum Holland

Anabel, wow what a beautiful yacht. I love that helm/nav station with the chair, toggle switches, gauges, and at the same time a lovely striped saloon with beautiful wood in the galley. Just gorgeous
__________________

__________________
DDabs is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
Holland, yacht

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
October Featured Yachts For Sale by Jordan Yachts Jordan Yachts Vendor Spotlight - Great Deals for CF Members! 0 13-10-2013 10:30
Hello from Holland. danny Meets & Greets 2 24-07-2007 16:44
Holland, Germany and Frisian Islands berneray General Sailing Forum 2 27-01-2006 06:23


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:47.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.