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Randyonr3 · 03-03-2010, 11:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

yep.

Even though a structural furler is just like a headstay and you can use hank-on sails ,you still have the drum and the room it takes. When you bring the drum below-decks, this disadvantage is solved (because it's just like a regular headstay above deck in that case.

But not many cruisers use this (I don't know a single one) because you can't reef the genoa with these furlers... they are in-or-out only.

Even with the drum below deck, you still can't use battens or a wishbone in your jib.

cheers,
Nick.

Dont know that I would agree with that statement of a hanked on sail to out perform a furler.. I'be been using a double track furler for years for racing.. as one sail is comming down, the other is already going up in a sail change and most all furlers are double track..
Using a double track foil for a headstay is the ultimate in racing and performance.. Going back to a hanked on system would not only cost you time but also efficiency of sail shape..

**s/v Jedi** · 03-03-2010, 12:59

Ah Randy but now you are looking at quick sail changes etc. ;-)

I always assumed we were looking at cruisers (this is a cruisers forum) and not racers. So I was comparing the avg. furler with round aluminium tubing around the forestay with the old fashioned hank-on. For a cruiser, hank-on gives better sailing performance even without the battens added.

All racers without a furler use a double track foil and boltrope on the foresails and of course that is better than hank-on. Just as all serious racers with a furler have the drum belowdecks or in a well so that it is below deck-level.

When you compare a double track plain furler for speed of sail change, that doesn't make sense to me because with just a couple aboard, you don't have enough hands to hoist and lower foresails at the same time.
Also, it's only fair to compare that to a twin headstay hank-on system and that outperforms a double-track furler again because the new headsail can be hanked on and readied before lowering the other headsail (which can be kept tied to the lifelines ready for hoisting again).

And when you start adding battens and wishbones for jibs to the comparison, a non-furled system becomes another class of headsail performance and beats any furler setup.

Edit: we all choose furlers for convenience but that doesn't mean our boats perform better with them.

cheers,
Nick.

barnakiel · 03-03-2010, 15:24

I am still trying to ketch up with this thread ...

;-)))
b.

Randyonr3 · 03-03-2010, 15:58

Jedi,
I dont understand where the difference comes in.. I have the same system on my cruising boat, as I did on my racer.. actually my racer is my cruiser..
Actually, I have two.. both my forsail and my staysail are both furled..
Both systems are "Pro Furl" and both are above the deck..
There may be some compromise in a furled sail in a lower masted boat if you would concider a "deck sweeper" but I'm running a "HIgh Aspect" rig so what I lose under the shelf is of little concern..
The one loss that I would see is that of running a sail of larger than 135% and tried to furl the sail..
Something that most people dont concider is that a sail of 135% when its furled down to 110%, its not the same shape of a stand alone 110% sail.. its close but not exact.. they have tried by using ropes and foam luff and it is close.. Once you go over 135% on a furled sail, you,ve lost your shape..
But as we all know, there is a compromise in everything, and the ability to drop a sail or to reduce sail area and not leave the cockpit is a plus..
As for performance, both my forsale and staysail are Radial Cut furled and deliver fantastic results....

rustypirate · 03-03-2010, 18:19

Jedi, if I understand you correctly you are making the case that the hank on headsail extends from the deck to masthead, while the furled sail is reduced in luff length to allow for the furling drum, and this is what causes the difference in performance.

If this is correct then while yes, the difference in length can cause a discrepancy in performance, most of the cruisers that I have know who have used hank on headsails usually had a piece of stainless wire to raise the bottom of the sail so as to avoid chaffing caused by the sail rubbing against the pulpit rail or lifelines. The shortening of the luff of the headsail to allow for a roller furling drum performs the same action as the wire that it replaces.

Now I know that this does not cover every cruiser out there and many boats can allow their headsials to run the full length of the stay without rubbing against rails or lifelines, etc.

Stillraining · 03-03-2010, 18:45

So....
Is the diameter of the foil disrupting the air flow of the leading edge any worse then the sags between the hanks that in no way can be brought as tight and uniform as a foiled sail can be?

FWIW...I have shortened sail on the wind with our Shaffer roller furler in 47 knots...sure the shape was crap but who cares about that if not racing?...and boy was it wound tight..

My only fear was the furling line parting in doing so...so in regards to safety then yes a smaller hanked on would be better...It is for this reason only I am adding an inter stay with storm sail hoisting ability....Wrap up the Genny and hank on 100 square feet inboard or that and be done with it...go below and make coffee.

Well being the only reason that's not totally true... the inter stay is comforting when your head stay is being shaken like a demon possessed child as well.

**s/v Jedi** · 03-03-2010, 20:45

Okay, let me start with the photo this time:

Now, THAT is a ketch. Look at the jib: it is right down onto the deck, closing the gap between deck and jib. It is not just the extra surface area... when you close this gap, you win much more because you don't allow "the wind to escape" through that gap and force it into the sail for extra power at the best possible location: down below at the lowest center of effort.
Next, look at the leech: BATTENS! Look at the top one: FULL batten!! Just like for the main and mizzen, it is about the shape of the foil, not just surface area. Look at the heel angle... when the sail shape wouldn't be as good as you see here, the heel would be much more and the boat speed much less.

Now everyone thinks it's about racing again but just think what happens when that stormy wind comes along: the better your sail shape, the less heel you get so the less rounding up you get etc. Getting sail shape right is always a win-win situation.

The next photo shows vertical jib battens, so that you can even furl it:

and just so that those who prefer photo's of sloops don't feel left behind ;-) :

ciao!
Nick.

bewitched · 03-03-2010, 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stillraining

So....
My only fear was the furling line parting in doing so...so in regards to safety then yes a smaller hanked on would be better...It is for this reason only I am adding an inter stay with storm sail hoisting ability....Wrap up the Genny and hank on 100 square feet inboard or that and be done with it...go below and make coffee.
.

That was the way I went - one of the best decisions I made - go just below the spreader and add checkstays.

Furling line parting - once so far for me and that was on a boat where they had stripped the line to the core - so no UV / chafe protection.

IMHO going up front once every 10 years or so to sort out a bust furling line is far safer than going up and working the foredeck every time you need a new sail up.

bewitched · 03-03-2010, 21:27

I have to agree with Jedi - Deck sweepers increase the power tremendously.

As with hank on vs roller vs foil extrusion. The aim is to get laminar flow over the sail. The bulbus shape of the roller will disturb the flow quite a bit, the entry on a hank on is better, but the air flow round the forestay itself is still non-laminar. The best is the foil. We are talking very small differences here. The actual cut and trim of the sail is far more important.

Stillraining · 03-03-2010, 21:42

Agreed Bewitched

Stillraining · 03-03-2010, 21:45

Jedi: I would really enjoy seeing some pictures of your vessel under full sail if you wouldn't mind posting a couple.

Christian Van H · 04-03-2010, 04:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stillraining

Jedi: I would really enjoy seeing some pictures of your vessel under full sail if you wouldn't mind posting a couple.

Be careful Stillraining...very careful. Before admiring Dashew vessels, remove your wallet from your back pocket! They have been known to spontaneously combust just from dreaming of Steve and Linda's creations...

Joli · 04-03-2010, 05:10

Not only that it's easy. The new jib goes up on the inside groove, flop over and pull down the old jib inside. Except when the foredeck guys muffs it and uses the port halyard on the starboard groove.

Outside sets are the toughest but do-able.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randyonr3

Dont know that I would agree with that statement of a hanked on sail to out perform a furler.. I'be been using a double track furler for years for racing.. as one sail is comming down, the other is already going up in a sail change and most all furlers are double track..
Using a double track foil for a headstay is the ultimate in racing and performance.. Going back to a hanked on system would not only cost you time but also efficiency of sail shape..