Ketchs vs Sloops

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Stillraining

Main mast split back stay with runners as well.

Mizzen for and aft lowers with runners as well.

I don't really have a good picture ..but here is what I have...My running backs attach to the very over kill built davits about a foot aft of the bends..you can see the port side tackle at the edge of the picture and if you look close you can see ths tab where the starboard one hooks in.

There are some davits . . . let me guess, navy surplus off a U.S. Navy destroyer?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by erasmos

In stormy conditions... the ketch.. choice depends how much time one spends in a LOT of wind.. otherwise its like comparing apples and pears. Most modern sloops are **** in breeze (above 45 knts).. like REAL ****..

Nonsense. Ketches have great advantages for balance and variety of sail plan in stormy conditions, but sloops have better windward performance, which may be crucial in a storm. That's a simple matter of physics -- sloops have (much) less drag, and more luff length for the same sail area. Drive to windward is more related to luff length, than sail area. With the right sails up, a sloop will be much better than a ketch clawing off a lee shore (and better than a cutter), no matter how strong is the wind. At certain point all the windage of the rig of a ketch will make it impossible to get off a lee shore even with the engine. Ketches are great, but like every other rig it has its own disadvantages, including even in heavy weather.

Ours is a cutter, which is a bit of a compromise between the two. Not as good to weather as a sloop, but better than a ketch. Not as much sail plan variety as a ketch, but better than a sloop. Doesn't shine at anything, but is Pretty Good pretty much in all conditions. You pays your money and takes your choices; whatever turns you on and makes you happy.

[mesquaukee]

It all depends on what you like. I like ketches for the look of them and the versatility of sails and balance. A sloop looks like it is missing something.
I do not like triatic stays for obvious reasons. A mizzen mast doesn't need one if the uppers are attached to the hull forward of the mast. The sheet braces the mast aft.
Why any one would use the mizzen sail for downwind running I do not understand. It unbalances the boat and causes a wind shadow and would require runners or a backstay for support of the mizzen mast.
Better to use a cruising chute or pole out the genoa to the windward side of the boat for any downwind sailing.
The mizzen sail is used for broad reaching. You can pack on a lot of sail, far more than any cutter or sloop (mizzen staysail, chute, etc.)for this angle of sail.

The mizzen mast is an excellent place to mount a wind generator, radar, etc.

[s/v Jedi]

Well, erasmos is in Greece and I can understand his position after dealing with the thousands of charter boats there ;-) A sloop will do just fine but it should be able to do a change of foresail when the wind goes to a gale, instead of using a small piece of a 130% genoa (or even bigger). A jib no.2 and a couple of reefs in the main is all it needs to handle a gale.

cheers,
Nick.

[s/v Jedi]

Dockhead: why would a cutter not outperform a sloop clawing off a lee shore in a storm? The best sail plan for a sloop in that weather would be a staysail or storm jib on an inner stay, just like the cutter.

Also, pointing high isn't worth a lot because it's not a race and the conditions mean you will need power to drive through the seas. A ketch can sail the same VMG as a sloop in those conditions, or near enough that it doesn't matter.

I keep to my statement that without sail changes (just reefing or furling working sails), a cutter and even a ketch can outperform many sloops. The reason is that the sloop has something like a 130% genoa furled away 70% or so while the cutter can fly a full or little furled staysail. A cutter-rigged ketch can do the same or even if they have to use the working jib, it will be much smaller, like 100% (mine is 95%).

If the sloop has an inner stay with jib no.2 or smaller on it, or if they changed the genoa for jib. no 2 or smaller they might well be better off than anything else. When I sailed a sloop this was normal because we didn't have furlers. But today, when I observe them around us during squalls etc., I see a lot of trouble with big genoa's ripping apart from the furler or at least silly performance with it furled away too much.

So, If I had a sloop, I would have a removable cutter stay and runners for heavy weather sailplans. A slutter is the definition we agreed upon ;-)

cheers,
Nick.

[wildshore]

one thing I didn't expect with my Ketch was that, with the nearly center cockpit and balanced sails, the motion in the cockpit was much reduced....really helped my frau who suffers with the mal-de-mer

[Mango Bob]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Nonsense. Ketches have great advantages for balance and variety of sail plan in stormy conditions, but sloops have better windward performance, which may be crucial in a storm. That's a simple matter of physics -- sloops have (much) less drag, and more luff length for the same sail area. Drive to windward is more related to luff length, than sail area. With the right sails up, a sloop will be much better than a ketch clawing off a lee shore (and better than a cutter), no matter how strong is the wind. At certain point all the windage of the rig of a ketch will make it impossible to get off a lee shore even with the engine. Ketches are great, but like every other rig it has its own disadvantages, including even in heavy weather.

You've got to be kidding Dockhead? Lets take a closer look at your philosophy...

1)Simple matter of physics; a sailboats drag coefficient isn't measured so much from rigging as it is from freeboard!

2)Drive to windward; in your quote you neglected to mention the additional luff length of the mizzen which would put a ketch at an advantage over a sloop (though we both know the mizzen can't point as high to wind) and

3) impossible to get off a lee shore even with the engine; You can't be serious? After your crack pipe has burned out, consider how large any ketches iron spinnaker can be... No personal digs intended...

I do agree with your advantages of a cutter rig though, they're great!

[Christian Van H]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

the windage of the rig of a ketch will make it impossible to get off a lee shore even with the engine.

I've got 100HP of normally aspirated diesel in a 42' ketch. I can pull your anemic cutter off a lee shore anytime...you really shouldn't generalize. A boat like Nicks Sundeer ketch can sail rings around you.

[mesquaukee]

If the wind is so high a ketch could not claw off a lee shore then the seas would be high. Being close to shore one would think the seabed would be rising causing short steep seas. A sloop or a cutter (even a ketch) would be piching so violently that the sails would would be moving violently fore and aft. The sails would not have a smooth sustained flow of air over them, poor if any windward performance.
I have found that sailing along such a coast until the wind subsides or the seas subside is the better option.
Using a combination of the iron genny and sail works wonders.

[s/v Jedi]

Generalization is indeed the trouble in this thread. When comparing you should look at otherwise equal boats: same length & weight, same hull shape, keel, beam etc.

When doing that I think it's easy to state that for cruising sailboats in heavy weather, a ketch beats a cutter which beats a slutter which beats a sloop. When we take a more detailed approach, I would state that at boat lengths under 50' the ketch and cutter become equals and under 40' the cutter will beat the ketch. When we arrive at 35' the slutter might beat the ketch and at 30' even the sloop beats the ketch. So, up to 40' the true cutter is probably, in general, the best heavy weather cruiser; between 40' and 50' ketch and cutter are equals and above 50' the ketch rules. A sloop will never be a better option than a cutter for heavy weather, but can be converted to slutter to narrow the gap.

I always try to keep Jedi out of these comparisons because she stands too far apart from the avg. cruising ketch. Just the fact that she is a planing design that does not conform to any racing rules (so taking advantage of techniques and contructions that are not allowed in racing) and yet is classified as a cruiser, makes it impossible to compare with other cruisers, plus many won't even believe it. ;-)

ciao!
Nick.

[bobfnbw]

Most of what I have read about ketches on a shorter LWL agrees with with dockhead said.
That being the case, Nick also makes a excellent point that with a furler and a 130 jib rolled up to a 90 or less, a sloop would be at a disadvantage as well.
And while it aint a race nick, vmg on a less shore in a storm,... well then it is a race. To get off before you get pounded.
But on longer water lines a ketch has great advantages.
But still, you don't see any in the Americas cup do you ? Or the maxi.
There are good reasons for that.
But a sloop or cutter is my choice for a boat with LWL less than 50 feet.
A inner fore-stay would be nice, but not necessary. Remember, most of what you need to concern yourself with is light winds. Not heavy.
A sloop will do well there.
Bob

[s/v Jedi]

Hi Bob,

What I meant is that in storm conditions, sloops can't point that high either. The reason is that you need more power to make way into the big seas. So, VMG becomes equal.
Also, it still isn't a race. What you want is increase the distance between you and the lee shore in the safest and most comfortable way. That always means that you sail a bigger wind angle, one that can be easily sailed by a ketch too.

I will never disagree with you that in a race a sloop will outperform a ketch because there is always enough upwind legs. But a ketch will beat a sloop on a broad reach, or do you believe otherwise?

If you think a 50' sloop doesn't need an inner/slutter/solent/baby stay you are probably right. But having one is more then nice during a storm, much more.
For a 30 footer I would tend to agree.

cheers,
Nick.

[daddle]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

But a ketch will beat a sloop on a broad reach, or do you believe otherwise?

Really? Everything else being equal except the rig type the sloop will always beat the ketch. For the same sail area the sloop will have a much taller rig, hence be sailing in much more favorable winds. Upwind, downwind, reaching. Only a low bridge or tired crew will change the outcome.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Dockhead: why would a cutter not outperform a sloop clawing off a lee shore in a storm? The best sail plan for a sloop in that weather would be a staysail or storm jib on an inner stay, just like the cutter.

Also, pointing high isn't worth a lot because it's not a race and the conditions mean you will need power to drive through the seas. A ketch can sail the same VMG as a sloop in those conditions, or near enough that it doesn't matter.

I keep to my statement that without sail changes (just reefing or furling working sails), a cutter and even a ketch can outperform many sloops. The reason is that the sloop has something like a 130% genoa furled away 70% or so while the cutter can fly a full or little furled staysail. A cutter-rigged ketch can do the same or even if they have to use the working jib, it will be much smaller, like 100% (mine is 95%).

If the sloop has an inner stay with jib no.2 or smaller on it, or if they changed the genoa for jib. no 2 or smaller they might well be better off than anything else. When I sailed a sloop this was normal because we didn't have furlers. But today, when I observe them around us during squalls etc., I see a lot of trouble with big genoa's ripping apart from the furler or at least silly performance with it furled away too much.

So, If I had a sloop, I would have a removable cutter stay and runners for heavy weather sailplans. A slutter is the definition we agreed upon ;-)

cheers,
Nick.

Well, maybe there's something to that. A sloop with just the right sails up will be able to sail closer to the wind than a cutter. The geometry of VMG to windward is extremely brutal when going to windward in a blow. One degree further off the wind can make the difference between sailing off, and shipwreck.

HOWEVER, you are of course right -- a sloop with just the right sails up for the conditions is a hypothetical entity. In real life, a cutter is more likely to be able to get the right sail plan up because of more choices, so maybe will not be so much worse than a sloop, or possibly better (depending on what's in the sloop's sail inventory).

Now where a ketch is concerned, you run into the problem of the tremendous aerodynamic drag of the second mast, the sails blanketing each other and feeding each other disturbed air, all that extra rigging, plus all that crap which is so convenient to mount on the mizzen . I would not want to be sailing, or even motoring off a lee shore in storm in most ketches, even good modern ones. In this situation, I think the advantages in balance and choice of sail plan and so forth are completely lost to all that windage and drag.

But remember again that all these are kind of Platonic ideals of sloops, cutters, and ketches. We assume all other things are equal, but in real life things are not at all equal. Shape of underwater sections plays a huge role, for example. A full keel sloop, an Island Packet say, with old-fashioned underbody, will be hairier off a lee shore than any modern cutter or even ketch.

A really good ketch, like your Sundeer, with her long waterline, narrow beam, widely spaced masts (specially designed to cure the blanketing disease of ketches, but I'm sure you know that), and efficient underbody, will outperform 99% of the sloops out there on any point of sail, not to mention in any weather. I'm convinced, by the way, that this distorts your ideas a little bit about ketches in general. Like thinking that all cars are like Ferraris. All cars, as it turns out, are not Ferraris, and all ketches are not Sundeers.

We've wandered off topic into the subject of hull shape. Like rigs, this is a matter of taste, but I guess I have to be honest and say that my taste is definitely -- screw "sea-kindliness", give me speed and weatherliness. Let me maneuver and make progress to windward, rather than bobbing around comfortably but helplessly. Now I guess some people will pipe up and disagree.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by daddle

Really? Everything else being equal except the rig type the sloop will always beat the ketch. For the same sail area the sloop will have a much taller rig, hence be sailing in much more favorable winds. Upwind, downwind, reaching. Only a low bridge or tired crew will change the outcome.

Hi daddle,

But that is the point: for the same boat length, the ketch will put up much more sail area than the sloop and that is why she will be faster. If a ketch would only be allowed the same sail area as the sloop, you are right, but that restriction wasn't part of the deal... would be the same as limiting the loop mast height to that of the main mast of the ketch.

ciao!
Nick.