Ketchs vs Sloops

[rustypirate]

One of the reasons that I am happy with my Ketch rig is that it allows me to carry a decent sail surface area while at the same time each of the individual sails are smaller in size. As a solo sailor, it makes a big difference that my 38 footer's Main is roughly the same size as a 32 foot sloop's.

Yes, I have to manage more pieces, but each of them are not too large to manage by just one person.

[SurferShane]

I bought a ketch by chance after always thinking that a sloop would be easier to handle. Now that I understand how the mizzen can be used for trimming and steering I would not look back. Given this asset and the smaller individual sails I think a ketch can actually be easier than a sloop to handle. Likewise, I don’t find it any more effort than my previous sloop.

[s/v Jedi]

[bobfnbw]

I always thought a ketch would be in my future. Seems like most of the boats I was attracted to were ketches, or yawls. But in the course of my research, I found that a sloop or true cutter for any boat under around 50 feet would be a better boat for me.
When you start getting above that range, a ketch or schooner makes sense, esp if you plan on trade wind sailing, or reaching. I disagree that a 40 foot ketch can claw off a lee shore better than a sloop. I also would say that the reason the dashew designed boats do well as ketches are in the efficent hull shape. They are more sled that true cruising hull shapes, esp. Beowulf. And they have large LWL.
Its funny, but as I was leaving the marina today, I was thinking this very thing, as I was looking at the Endeavour 43 ketch a few boats down from me. The cost of rigging it, the PITA of the stick placement, and the loss of the after deck not to mention the poor up wind perfomance....
But the other side of it is that the ketch or schooner is a beautiful rig when sailing. And I can appreciate the ability to drop the main and sail under jig and jigger. And if you have the staysails to go along with it, well you can then really move on a reach.
But then you have a larger sail inventory, which translates into big boat bucks.
I can not see the appeal in a 2nd stick on a boat less than 50 ft.
Bob

[wsvoboda]

I love my Ketch. She has Rail tacks for easy switching of sails for the the Main and Mizzen and a I use hank on jib for easy drop and replacing of sail. A strong 6 ounce jib is good for off shore and you can drop and replace with a light air sail. Say a 4 ounce jib for light air will get you to windward. I also have a self tacking jib system on my ketch so you can tack and not worry about working the jib sheets all the time. She does sail good downwind with strong or light winds but you need a good autopilot if you want to take a nap in srtong swells. I enjoy the fact that I can reef the mizzen at anchor and stay bow to the wind for a smother ride and keeping the anchor set where you dropped it. That is all Sir. Cheers,

[sneuman]

I'm agnostic.

If I were looking at something in excess of 40' and my purpose was a trade wind passage, I would definitely consider a ketch. I think a well-set up sloop in that size range is manageable. I also like the versatility of the cutter, but staysail stay creates its own issues.

Beawoulf puts a lot of distance between the main and mizzen and the mizzen itself has unusually generous area. That makes up for a few strikes against a traditional ketch rig.

[goboatingnow]

Firstly , Ketch rig in cruising size boats really came out of the fact that in racing, the mizzen was an unrated sal area and hence boat for boat a ketch could carry more sail and hence be faster. That notion ( as much does) carried accross into cruising boats. Once the mizzen was included, the ketch became uncompetitive and has completely disappeared from offshore racing.

While split rigs are nice to look at , they are not as efficient as a sloop. Read Beth an evans thinking when they replaced their boat,, they went from a ketch to a sloop and wouldnt go back. Having said that a cutter is propably the best combination with a cutter rigged sloop the next. or perhaps even a solent rigged cutter sloop. IN my opinion headsail combo are better then a mizzen

Justifiying ketchs becuase they can hold a radar !!!!. well the less said the better.

[s/v Jedi]

What is a classic ketch design... this one? :
-
If you look at ketches with a relatively small mizzen, check out the position of it's main mast. It will be further back than like the one on the photo above. I sometimes get the feeling that they convert a sloop to a ketch or that the hull is just too short for a successful ketch rig. Eliminating the bow sprit doesn't help either.
On a ketch, the mizzen is supposed to provide power, not just trim like a yawl. But the smaller the mizzen gets, the less power and the more it sails like a yawl.

cheers,
Nick.

[sailorboy1]

Funny that I posted this in 2008 and it died, but now is larger than when new.

Since that time I've decided that I don't really care overall. But some ketches seem to have the mizzen in the middle of the cockpit and I don't like that (get a aft cockpit, center cockpits seem a great match for a ketch). I also don't really like all the extra rigging. I figure if I cann't get my sloop balanced I have other issues probably going on so to me this isn't really a consideration. I think I would like a cutter in the 40-45" boats that I want to stick to, but wasn't part of my orginal question.

If I were to come across 2 boats when condition and price were equal I guess I would start putting more thought into the rig pros/cons. But this isn't going to happen so as long as the a ketch rig layout doesn't jump right out to me as a disadvantage.

My 2 cents on my 1 cent question!

[SurferShane]

Originally Posted by wsvoboda

I love my ketch ..,, I use hank on jib for easy drop and replacing of sail. A strong 6 ounce jib is good for off shore and you can drop and replace with a light air sail. Say a 4 ounce jib for light air will get you to windward

Thanks - bit off topic, but i just ordered a new hank on Genoa with the same system in mind. It is a number 2 at about 7 oz cloth and I am hoping to get a bigger one at 5 or so oz. For a while there I thought everyone had gone to furlers?

Also, if or when I replace the mizzen I should look at getting a few reefs?

(Maybe good question/s for a totally separate thread?)

[sneuman]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

What is a classic ketch design... this one? :
-
If you look at ketches with a relatively small mizzen, check out the position of it's main mast. It will be further back than like the one on the photo above. I sometimes get the feeling that they convert a sloop to a ketch or that the hull is just too short for a successful ketch rig. Eliminating the bow sprit doesn't help either.
On a ketch, the mizzen is supposed to provide power, not just trim like a yawl. But the smaller the mizzen gets, the less power and the more it sails like a yawl.

cheers,
Nick.

Ok, I agree it's a bit subjective, but I think of something more like this:

[s/v Jedi]

Hank on genoa's outperform roller furling genoa's. I would immediately specify at least a batten at the head of the genoa or even a wishbone at the clew!!

Also, when it's time to reef and you take down the genoa and hoist a jib, the difference with a half-furled (roller) genoa becomes silly and you are way better off.
Don't forget that you can add a reef to the foot of a hank-on foresail too!

Yes, on a ketch, the mizzen should have reefs too.

cheers,
Nick.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Hank on genoa's outperform roller furling genoa's.

???

Even if we use a structural furler?

b.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

???

Even if we use a structural furler?

b.

yep.

Even though a structural furler is just like a headstay and you can use hank-on sails ,you still have the drum and the room it takes. When you bring the drum below-decks, this disadvantage is solved (because it's just like a regular headstay above deck in that case.

But not many cruisers use this (I don't know a single one) because you can't reef the genoa with these furlers... they are in-or-out only.

Even with the drum below deck, you still can't use battens or a wishbone in your jib.

cheers,
Nick.

[s/v Jedi]

I want to come back to that sloop vs ketch clawing away from a lee shore in a storm that suddenly came up.

I sailed a sloop for a long long time and we did that often without any trouble. We lowered the genoa and raised a small jib and put some reefs in the main.

But it isn't like that anymore. Smallish (under 45') sloops today have a big genoa on roller furling. That sail isn't designed to be used in storms, and when you furl it for reefing, it's performance is miserable.

And it is the jib that must get a sloop off that lee shore....

Compare that to a cutter, they can simple furl the jib away and continue under staysail, while reefing the main. The staysail can be used unfurled, it's nice back a bit from the bow so that it doesn't catch to many waves, and it can deal with the windy conditions.
A ketch can drop the main and continue. They have a jib instead of a genoa.

So, it isn't about a sloop getting in trouble, it is about the avg sloop that is sailing around today. Most that decide to go far install a cutter stay and become a slutter (yes I like the word ;-)

cheers,
Nick.