Ketchs vs Sloops

[daddle]

People a building new wooden boats too...

Ten years from now, when the spinnaker is obsolete, the threads will be breathlessly promoting the superiority of ancient spinnaker technology over the new faster better simpler non-spinnaker boats....

[s/v Jedi]

Daddle: tell me in how many storms you sailed with sloops and in how many with ketches? Also, post some links to information that confirms that new designs are sloops only. I just posted some modern ketch designs incl. innovation on that rig and instead of addressing that, you now start about wooden boats and spinnakers... that doesn't really help for making your point that designers never choose a ketch rig anymore.

cheers,
Nick.

[daddle]

I've never sailed on a ketch. I've sailed in plenty of storms on sloops. That makes little difference to my contention that ketches are obsolete from a performance standpoint. Which is contrary to many of your claims above. There's substantial literature to the effect that the principal advantage of a ketch is handling of multiple smaller sails. Secondary advantages have little to do with performance: radars, spare rig... I think you are at an advantage having Jedi as a ketch rig for just that reason as the Sundeer sloops have a formidable size main - well beyond what happy crew would want to carry. But any performance advantage you do not have. The Sundeer 64 sloop would 'sail circles around you' in all conditions except bare pole weather or in the presence of low bridges.

Jedi would be faster, lighter, easier to trim, less expensive, and easier to maintain as a sloop.

There were quite a number of other unsupportable claims in your text regarding the shortcomings of sloops which were just silly.

No, I wasn't clear about new ketch designs. I meant nobody would suggest a ketch design unless the sail handling advantage could not be handled in some better way. Beyond that I maintain that ketch technology has been obsolete since the 70's when tall rigs became more practical. Similarly spinnakers seem to be at the end or their era as lighter boats with very efficient sails have the apparent wind forward on all points of sail. The merits of which we will argue about with the retro crowd well into the 22nd century.

[erasmos]

when youre in a hurricane... you arnt going upwind... but the thing is that most people never experience those storms as per modern weather forecasting. In the old days it was different, surprise hit and whethering storms were crucial to survival

Im a sloop sailor but just realising these days how the older ketches harness the power of the wind for fisher men which they were invented. often their lives depended on easy handling in wind

better for the cruise sailor, the sloop, maybe, but if youre looking at survival sailing which Im having a growing interest for well designed ketches seems not such a bad idea

likewise tree can be repaired on a solentary island whereas glasfiber you need a lift, expoxy, ****..

the ketch, designed in the days where boats where made for more wind, is equipped with a lower sailplan and hence much easier to manouvre .. but isnt the problem that most modern ketches tries to shoot inbetween and hence are non of either. hence the sloop being preferred?

lot of the people having mainly sailed sloops and the idiotic ketches designed these days havent really grasped the basic benefits

another matter is the possibility of riggin a storm jib closer to the main which on older vessels made the helm balanced

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Nonsense. Ketches have great advantages for balance and variety of sail plan in stormy conditions, but sloops have better windward performance, which may be crucial in a storm. That's a simple matter of physics -- sloops have (much) less drag, and more luff length for the same sail area. Drive to windward is more related to luff length, than sail area. With the right sails up, a sloop will be much better than a ketch clawing off a lee shore (and better than a cutter), no matter how strong is the wind. At certain point all the windage of the rig of a ketch will make it impossible to get off a lee shore even with the engine. Ketches are great, but like every other rig it has its own disadvantages, including even in heavy weather.

Ours is a cutter, which is a bit of a compromise between the two. Not as good to weather as a sloop, but better than a ketch. Not as much sail plan variety as a ketch, but better than a sloop. Doesn't shine at anything, but is Pretty Good pretty much in all conditions. You pays your money and takes your choices; whatever turns you on and makes you happy.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Christian Van H

I find your boat to be quite beautiful, and she looks fast just sittin' there. Bet she sails like a sweetheart!

Why thank you!

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

We never sailed the Solent but plan to visit England with Jedi too and we have seen most of the east coast already (during our pre-retirement sailing from Holland) so we'll visit!

ciao!
Nick.

You will like the South coast of England, I think. I am only just exploring it myself (I'm a Yank and not native to the area) and have been amazed at its beauty and variety, plus the great number of historical, interesting ports. It seems like every three miles there is another one, more interesting than the last one. It is completely different from the East coast. Next week we are going to sail overnight from Hamble to Torbay, 100 nautical miles, and check that out.

By all means, come visit. We can raft up somewhere and drink gin tonics. Maybe someplace like this:

50°35'32.13"N
2° 3'54.78"W

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by daddle

I've never sailed on a ketch. I've sailed in plenty of storms on sloops. That makes little difference to my contention that ketches are obsolete from a performance standpoint.

It doesn't make a difference to your contention, but it does show that you never experienced the differences personally. With a fancy expression, it means that you bring forward anecdotal evidence.

Which is contrary to many of your claims above.

No it isn't. We are in complete agreement. You obviously have missed the fact that I am talking about cruisers, not racers, and that my definition of "performance" in that cruising context, means how a cruising ketch handles storm weather conditions with a short handed cruising crew aboard, where speed is only one of many factors.
Your definition of "performance" is a racing based one, where speed is the primary factor. Although there is much more to racing design than just selecting a sloop rig for speed (they analyze each leg of a race, designate the best design for each leg, before deciding on the overall optimal design), a sloop rigged racer always comes out as the optimal design.

There's substantial literature to the effect that the principal advantage of a ketch is handling of multiple smaller sails.

Agreed.

Secondary advantages have little to do with performance: radars, spare rig...

Agreed again. But you didn't read the thread because I never brought that up as an advantage of a ketch... I was merely defending the ketch when this was brought up as a negative.

I think you are at an advantage having Jedi as a ketch rig for just that reason as the Sundeer sloops have a formidable size main - well beyond what happy crew would want to carry. But any performance advantage you do not have.

I do not understand this. Our main is much smaller than the main on a 50' sloop so I would say that our main makes us very happy. In fact, we're happy with every aspect of Jedi and wouldn't trade her for any sloop, not even one that has a value of 10 times Jedi.

The Sundeer 64 sloop would 'sail circles around you' in all conditions except bare pole weather or in the presence of low bridges.

How do you know that? There are, in fact, several Sundeer 64 sloops and although the idea behind that was more speed, the design didn't take the tall rig kindly and I think all have shortened the mast for more comfort and lost their sustained planing ability with that. Upwind with 20-25 knots of wind they might still be faster than the ketches.

Jedi would be faster, lighter, easier to trim, less expensive, and easier to maintain as a sloop.

Faster under certain conditions yes, lighter no because she needs more ballast, easier to trim certainly not, less expensive I'm not sure, easier to maintain certainly not.

There were quite a number of other unsupportable claims in your text regarding the shortcomings of sloops which were just silly.

I think I only stated their performance in heavy weather for a cruising sailboat; please bring forward everything you think is silly because I will correct my mistakes as soon as I'm made aware of them.

No, I wasn't clear about new ketch designs. I meant nobody would suggest a ketch design unless the sail handling advantage could not be handled in some better way.

Ah, so we do agree.

Beyond that I maintain that ketch technology has been obsolete since the 70's when tall rigs became more practical.

Yes, the racers all switched to sloop rigged. Much of that change was caused by changes in racing rules, which gave ketches an unfair advantage until that was changed (ketch Flyer won Whitbread under the old rules and next race sloop Flyer II won under the new rules)

Similarly spinnakers seem to be at the end or their era as lighter boats with very efficient sails have the apparent wind forward on all points of sail. The merits of which we will argue about with the retro crowd well into the 22nd century.

If you keep the statement like that you will indeed have to argue for a lifetime. If you add "except for a run" then I will agree right away.

I want to come back to the racer vs cruiser comparisons. I am convinced this thread is about cruising designs, not racers. Also, this is a cruisers forum. So, if you keep bringing forward arguments that are valid for racers, we're not getting anywhere because I have already admitted that sloop rigged is faster than ketch rigged many posts ago. All of my posts are about cruising designs, so please don't attack them while ignoring that or pretending you didn't notice that. I also mentioned that I use the complete handling as a cruising sailboat by it's short handed crew as my definition of performance. If I mean speed, I write speed.

Lastly: you should read up on the Dashew designed ketches. They are not anything close to how you think about ketches. They have entered races for cruising designs with excellent results vs sloops, not just winning on handicap but also setting elapsed time records beating even multihulls. Beowulf did that in the Caribbean 1500 and Artemis in the ARC, plus many other races. There are not many cruising sloops that will average 300nm days on ocean passages with just a couple aboard... in fact, I can't come up with a single one.

cheers,
Nick.

[CarlF]

A couple of points that Nick made earlier bear repeating:

Above about 50 feet' a sloop's mainsail and 140 genoa are too heavy for most 50+ year old backs to lift. Any sail failure or maintenance requires outside assistance. A real safety issue.

Once you get close to hull speed, the extra performance of a sloop is of no value. The sloop's theoretical rig advantage is only in light air and upwind - when many cruisers resort to the engine or the "gentlemen don't sail to weather" philosophy - sloop or ketch. Far better to increase hull speed by lengthening the waterline with a plumb bow ( like the Dashew boats) .

Tall rigged sloops are more far more likely use furling masts to tame that huge mainsail - which then makes their upwind performance far worse than a conventionally rigged ketch. Those beautiful big Oysters almost all have furling masts and don't really go upwind very well.

The sag in a roller furling headstay and the sheeting angle around the shrouds is more likely the limiting factor on tacking angle on a cruising boat - ketch or sloop.

Carl

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by CarlF

A couple of points that Nick made earlier bear repeating:

Above about 50 feet' a sloop's mainsail and 140 genoa are too heavy for most 50+ year old backs to lift. Any sail failure or maintenance requires outside assistance. A real safety issue.

Once you get close to hull speed, the extra performance of a sloop is of no value. The sloop's theoretical rig advantage is only in light air and upwind - when many cruisers resort to the engine or the "gentlemen don't sail to weather" philosophy - sloop or ketch. Far better to increase hull speed by lengthening the waterline with a plumb bow ( like the Dashew boats) .

Tall rigged sloops are more far more likely use furling masts to tame that huge mainsail - which then makes their upwind performance far worse than a conventionally rigged ketch. Those beautiful big Oysters almost all have furling masts and don't really go upwind very well.

The sag in a roller furling headstay and the sheeting angle around the shrouds is more likely the limiting factor on tacking angle on a cruising boat - ketch or sloop.

Carl

Hmm, a lot to think about here. I think cruising sailboats over 50' without furling mains almost don't exist any more, at least I didn't see any when I was shopping. Other than one very old Oyster 55 ketch, with fully battened main and mizzen, I think the only Oyster 55 ever made as a ketch (most of the O435's were ketches, though).

I wonder if what you say is really true -- furling main versus fully battened main makes a bigger difference in pointing ability, than ketch vs. sloop? Can that be true? I can't judge because I have never sailed two similar boats with different mains.

[matoi]

A nice thread on an old ketch sailboat:

Drake

An older thread on this forum on similar matters that I keep bookmarked:

Ketch rig - utilizing its full potential



Nick, thanks for the beautiful photos. Are you coming to Adriatic anytime? Or is it too small for Jedi ;-)

Cheers!
Mato


P.S. Most people here seem to own big boats, but I keep thinking about benefits of modern ketch in dinghy / small cruiser arena for other reasons:

larger sail area usable without winches &
easier manoevering into and out of tight places without engine

[Bash]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I will never disagree with you that in a race a sloop will outperform a ketch because there is always enough upwind legs. But a ketch will beat a sloop on a broad reach, or do you believe otherwise?

Slooper than I am, I might concede a beam reach to a ketch, perhaps even a shallow broad reach, but never a close reach or a deep broad reach.

But this digression is a bit silly, is it not? Most of us sail sloops for the simple reason that they are so much more beautiful than boats with split rigs.

[Bash]

Originally Posted by CarlF

Tall rigged sloops are more far more likely use furling masts to tame that huge mainsail - which then makes their upwind performance far worse than a conventionally rigged ketch. Those beautiful big Oysters almost all have furling masts and don't really go upwind very well.

I may have conceded this argument when the first boats came out with in-mast furling, usually added as an afterthought, but more recent boats that have actually been designed for this system compensate for the slight loss in performance, especially in terms of balance. And they do so at a much lower trade-off in terms of weight aloft than a ketch rig.

I have an in-mast furler on a boat that was designed for it, and I honestly don't think there's a ketch around that can outpoint me. If I'm in proper trim close-hauled, my jib begins to pinch a degree or two before my main does.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I wonder if what you say is really true -- furling main versus fully battened main makes a bigger difference in pointing ability, than ketch vs. sloop? Can that be true? I can't judge because I have never sailed two similar boats with different mains.

Yes it makes that difference because of the optimal dragower ratio you get when you approach the perfect shape of a wing. But you need more than full battens; it's all the hardware that comes with them plus you need to add the roach to create the wing shape and that leads to special requirements for the sail cloth. We used to have laminated Spectra sails but these have many disadvantages like delamination, mildew etc. We now switched to HydraNet material and that seems like the best option to me. No more trouble (it's woven) and still the Spectra reinforcement fibers.

You can go furler with good shape when you go in-boom furling and that is what you see with big boats that want performance. I don't like it for two reasons: technical trouble (they all have that) plus the requirement that the angle between boom and mast is an exact 90 degrees. This means that this angle stays the same when you reef, while for of shore sailing you want your leech to become shorter than the luff so that the end of the boom comes up. This will keep it clear from the water in a downwind roll.

ciao!
Nick.

[daddle]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

(Spinakers obsolete...) If you keep the statement like that you will indeed have to argue for a lifetime. If you add "except for a run" then I will agree right away.

I see the resistance to change continues...all useful technology becomes obsolete. Ketches, schooners, brigantines...now spinnakers too. Soon enough sloops. It over, done, stick a fork in it. Far better technologies exist.

I've been on Skip's Beowolf. Did not sail, unfortunately. I'd hesitate to call her a ketch...or at least draw many parallels. Seems he likes the sloop rig so much he installed two :-)

I don't seek your agreement. I just thought the thread could benefit from a contrary point-of-view.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Yes it makes that difference because of the optimal dragower ratio you get when you approach the perfect shape of a wing. But you need more than full battens; it's all the hardware that comes with them plus you need to add the roach to create the wing shape and that leads to special requirements for the sail cloth. We used to have laminated Spectra sails but these have many disadvantages like delamination, mildew etc. We now switched to HydraNet material and that seems like the best option to me. No more trouble (it's woven) and still the Spectra reinforcement fibers.

You can go furler with good shape when you go in-boom furling and that is what you see with big boats that want performance. I don't like it for two reasons: technical trouble (they all have that) plus the requirement that the angle between boom and mast is an exact 90 degrees. This means that this angle stays the same when you reef, while for of shore sailing you want your leech to become shorter than the luff so that the end of the boom comes up. This will keep it clear from the water in a downwind roll.

ciao!
Nick.

Hmm. But in-mast furling can't be that horrible; ARC's have been won with it. This is anecdotal, and thus proves nothing, but I do know that a Moody 64 with in-mast furling won the cruising division of the ARC in 2002, averaging over 200 miles a day all the way across the Atlanta. This cruising boat was 4th overall and so beat almost the whole racing fleet to boot. The same year the overall winner was a Dixon 65, a very similar boat by the same designer, with in-boom furling. I guess that's trade winds sailing without much beating, but still.

Thanks for the sailcloth advice, which is timely. I will sail this season on the old sails, but I'm hoping my better half will give me a new set of working sails for Christmas . . . I've been looking at the Hydranet sails myself.