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Old 13-01-2009, 14:16   #46
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Originally Posted by James S View Post
I have to say I have never cruised on anything but a cutter and sloop, but from a pure gear sense, a ketch or schooner has another whole set of stuff.
It’s like two boats worth.

I have the same problem with catamarans ...two engines...exhausts...props...rudders....fuel systems....blah...blahhh

I just really like it simple, and accept the compromises that go with that, including not being able to look like the guys in stillrainings wonderful picture.
This is a common mis-perception.

That's kinda like be faced with the following dilemma:

You have an engine to overhaul. On the left you have your small toolbox that you are familiar with and feel comfortable with. On the right, you have a professional mechanics, Snap-on tool box full off tools. Which do you choose???

True, you may not use all of the tools in that pro tool box but it sure is handy to have them and it will make the job easier when you find the best tool for the job at hand.

Thinking of a ketch or schooner as being twice as complicated is the wrong way to look at these vessels. Trust me...I've sailed them all extensively. I'd far rather single-hand a schooner or ketch than a sloop any day. I have ALL the tools that I need to handle the differing conditions of a long ocean passage. It's easier to select the right tools for the right conditions and you actually end up doing less trimming, not more, as one might suspect.

In fact, on many day sails, I might not even remove the sail covers from the mizzen. When passage making, any simgle combination of sails may keep you off of the deck longer than if you had fewer combinations to choose from.
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Old 13-01-2009, 14:39   #47
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On the left you have your small toolbox that you are familiar with and feel comfortable with. On the right, you have a professional mechanics, Snap-on tool box full off tools. Which do you choose???
I choose to sell off all those mechanics tools and the box...do you have any idea what all that stuff would be worth?
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Old 13-01-2009, 14:43   #48
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I choose to sell off all those mechanics tools and the box...do you have any idea what all that stuff would be worth?
Ya....but do you know how much they'd be worth to you if you needed 'em & didn't have them???

There are no hardware stores at sea......
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Old 13-01-2009, 21:15   #49
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Help me not to make a mistake here Kanani. I am looking at two completely different boats. Both shown to be bluewater worthy. Both by high quality builders. One is a fast cutter- very similar to your Passport. Airdraft 57 feet. The other is a ketch- shown seaworthy with airdraft of 40 something. Both have circumnavigated, but the ketch is a little slower to wind. Both were designed to be in their configuration (not added on to a production sloop)
I go back and forth all the time with this. With the ketch I have redundancy in sail and systems. Really I have two sailing motors should one go out. And I have a platform to place my wind charger, SSB etc were it is less likely to get hit. And I can sail the boat steering with rear sail (another backup)
With the cutter I have better upwind, which can be a big thing in the Northern Latitudes. And the rig is simple. I can balance with the staysail. And should I get the best sailing sailboat I can? I mean- I'm one of those purists that sail to the dock, then get up the next morning and sail off before any other boats gets in the channel. I mean the engine is just a necessary evil that is there when the chief needs hot water. (Glad I got that all off my chest )
So tell me Doc, what boat is best for me????
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Old 13-01-2009, 22:01   #50
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Are y'all sure about that yawl?

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
A mizzen would be useful at times, I certainly wouldnt shy away from a ketch rig. Although I might prefer the yawl....
I believe that it was Olin Stevens who once said " I can improve any yawl's appearance and its performance... with an axe"! *

Perhaps a bit extreme, but he was a world class designer, one who had drawn many a yawl's lines... wonder why he said that??

* Actually the quote may be inaccurate as to wording, but not as to intent.

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Old 14-01-2009, 01:06   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanani View Post
Thinking of a ketch or schooner as being twice as complicated is the wrong way to look at these vessels. Trust me...I've sailed them all extensively. I'd far rather single-hand a schooner or ketch than a sloop any day. I have ALL the tools that I need to handle the differing conditions of a long ocean passage. It's easier to select the right tools for the right conditions and you actually end up doing less trimming, not more, as one might suspect.

In fact, on many day sails, I might not even remove the sail covers from the mizzen. When passage making, any simgle combination of sails may keep you off of the deck longer than if you had fewer combinations to choose from.
I didn’t say it’s more complicated.....just more stuff...in fact its almost twice as much "stuff" right!

I'm pretty meticulous in how I build my "stuff" and how I maintain it.

For me.. I prefer to have the least amount of stuff on the boat that I can get away with.

I agree with you 100% that you probably have more "tools" at your disposal when it comes to sail combinations...and this may make you sail much more efficiently, faster and so on...

My only point is it IS more stuff, and for me the trade-off isn’t worth it.

As far as boat systems go……….Less Stuff…Less Stuff…Less Stuff
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Old 14-01-2009, 10:29   #52
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Help me not to make a mistake here Kanani. I am looking at two completely different boats. Both shown to be bluewater worthy. Both by high quality builders. One is a fast cutter- very similar to your Passport. Airdraft 57 feet. The other is a ketch- shown seaworthy with airdraft of 40 something. Both have circumnavigated, but the ketch is a little slower to wind. Both were designed to be in their configuration (not added on to a production sloop)
I go back and forth all the time with this. With the ketch I have redundancy in sail and systems. Really I have two sailing motors should one go out. And I have a platform to place my wind charger, SSB etc were it is less likely to get hit. And I can sail the boat steering with rear sail (another backup)
With the cutter I have better upwind, which can be a big thing in the Northern Latitudes. And the rig is simple. I can balance with the staysail. And should I get the best sailing sailboat I can? I mean- I'm one of those purists that sail to the dock, then get up the next morning and sail off before any other boats gets in the channel. I mean the engine is just a necessary evil that is there when the chief needs hot water. (Glad I got that all off my chest )
So tell me Doc, what boat is best for me????
A cruising yacht is so much more than just sail configuration. It may be a mistake to base too much of your decision on that.

A Ketch really is not "two sailing motors should one go out". If you lose the mainmast, you cannot sail on the mizzen alone (without moving it forward). One would have to unmount the mizzen mast and remount it where the mainmast was. Although that would be possible on some vessels, it would not be easy but you'd be surprised what you could do if you have to. However, on a schooner, the loss of either mast does leave you with a mast that will drive the boat.

When making long ocean passages or having the ability to maneuver in restricted areas, under sail, the ability to go to windward is somewhat important. No matter what the passage, even if the pilot charts show that passage to be down-wind, they usually seem to have some windward component to them. Having a vessel that sails to windward well may be a big plus FOR YOU, however it must be viewed in balance with everything else.

A sailboat is all about compromises. Getting the right balance of compromises FOR YOU is what is important.


EDIT:
You actually may be able to rig a fore-stay to the mizzen mast on a ketch and may be able to move the vessel forward under certain conditions......Personally, I would move the mast forward......tricky, maybe even dangerous (at sea) but do-able (in calm conditions). I mounted the masts on my boat without a crane, using only leverage and my whisker poles.

Most people fail to recognize that survival sailing is not about reaching a particular destination in a reasonable time. It is about reaching any destination and time is merely limited to ones ability to collect food and water. Achieving 1 kt is 24 miles a day. In 30 days, one can achieve 720 miles @ 1kt. That's an important concept to internalize.
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Old 14-01-2009, 11:06   #53
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I didn’t say it’s more complicated.....just more stuff...in fact its almost twice as much "stuff" right!

I'm pretty meticulous in how I build my "stuff" and how I maintain it.

For me.. I prefer to have the least amount of stuff on the boat that I can get away with.

I agree with you 100% that you probably have more "tools" at your disposal when it comes to sail combinations...and this may make you sail much more efficiently, faster and so on...

My only point is it IS more stuff, and for me the trade-off isn’t worth it.

As far as boat systems go……….Less Stuff…Less Stuff…Less Stuff
James,

You have a beautiful boat and she is perfect FOR YOU just the way she is. However, "Complicated" is relevant and in the eyes of the beholder (as is everything else on a boat).

If that were my boat, I'd trade those complicated looking davits for a mizzen mast any day...........no offense intended....just trying to make a point .
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Old 14-01-2009, 11:11   #54
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I once got off an island with a floaty raft and a beach towel for a sail, so I understand survival sailing. The boat to pick me up couldn't get in close because of reefs and the outboard with inflatable was history. I do believe a ketch offers redundant systems (sail and steering) that you probably couldn't do as well with a cutter. That said, I have sailed a sloop sans rudder, and one could use warps to steer you also. The most important thing is the sailor (where have I heard that before?) but the right boat could sure help- heck here I go again....
Is there any evidence that a smaller air draft helps recover from a knock down- or have less damage?
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Old 14-01-2009, 11:29   #55
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my old ketch if the main came down the mizzen would have most likely followed. granted there would be more material left to jury rig with but thats not how I would choose my boat. Liked the ketch with stay'sl It had so many sail options and the sq footage was broken up nicely. With a mizzen staysl the genny and everything else flying it was an awesome head turning rig.
I have a cutter now and like the sail options. Tucking the genny through the slot is a bit of a pain If a lot of tacking is needed. The single main is managable with lazy Jacks and single line reefing. My cutter points better but it is a very different boat. I can't clear the cape may canal bridge where I could with my ketch. THere is more rigging with a ketch But I suppose the loads are also probably spread out over more points so there is a trade off. I would n't write any of them off my next boat list including a schooner. My point of view My f-27 is sloop rig and that is very practical for that design. Really depends on so many other factors
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Old 14-01-2009, 18:42   #56
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Catboat is simple...

One sail, one sheet, it doesn't get much easier than that. There are rather a few of 'em that have no standing rigging. And a decently designed catboat can point higher than an equivalent sloop.

They just don't happen to be the simplest sail to live with long term, or the fastest.

I don't think anyone can 'prove' if one or another of these rigs will be better for cruising, and every implementation of each rig can be a great example of the type or a dog. This long thread so far suggests the cruising community generally thinks the cutter is very versatile and the best all-around compromise.

My opinion is the rig you already have, know how to use, and like is the best rig for you.
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Old 14-01-2009, 18:51   #57
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I know that this may be a very debateable subject (I don't want to start any fights). But as a general rule which rig does better in light air? If you used the same hull with the three different rigs, which one would be better ( by better I mean not setting still baking in the sun)? Lets say there is a 5 knot breeze and you are on a beam to broad reach.


There is a reason all the Americas Cup boats have been sloop rigged in the past.

It is the most efficient sail configuration in a variety of winds when ease of handling is not a concern
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Old 14-01-2009, 19:11   #58
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Shamrock...

You forgot to add the qualifier "and sail area is penalized."
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Old 14-01-2009, 19:31   #59
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You forgot to add the qualifier "and sail area is penalized."
If I remember correctly Shamrock was defeated….

I am assuming for a fair comparison of rig efficiency then sail are should be equal....
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Old 14-01-2009, 19:39   #60
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And when you assume... :: After all, iirc Shamrock did have less sail than the boat which beat her, but also less than Britannia who she defeated for the honor of being beaten.
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