Ketch vs Sloop vs Cutter

[waverider]

Well if your talking about being on a reach or beam reach with white sail only. The gaft rigged Schooner is the best hands down, but it does not sail into the wind at all, points very badly and most are wood and heavy.

[sneuman]

I own a cutter and basically like it. But, if I had it to do over again, I'd probably opt for the ease of a sloop with a removable baby stay.

[Kanani]

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

In the Liveaboard report most people cruising would trade their current rig for a cutter rig than any other.

Two furling sails ahead the mast, a jiffy reefed main keeps everone off the foredeck during the stressful times.

I'm just guessing but I would imagine that most of the people that responded to a "Poll" like that would have been owners of sloops or cutters.

I have found that most single stick sailors are very intimidated by dual sticks. The illusion is that it is complicated, unfamiliar territory and must be harder to manage.

My experience delivering many vessels and owning 2 sloops - 2 ketches, is that the reality is very different from the perception. I find that a schooner is the easiest vessel to sail in all conditions and offers more combinations to deal with any condition.

Having said that, I would love to have my Passport 45 ketch (Kanani) back and would take it over any other vessel that I have ever sailed, for comfort and safety. To me, that's what cruising is all about. She wasn't particularly fast but she would make 175 mile days, day after day (with a decent breeze) and I had more than one 200+ mile day. What more can you ask for.

I think if you were to take a poll of all of the people that have owned dual stick vessels and ask them if they would ever go back to a single stick, you would be very hard pressed to find anyone that would. The only exception might be someone that wants to go faster.

[Stillraining]

And they look so Cool!...

[defjef]

Two sails with roller furling and slab reefing gives me plenty of sail options. I have the removable baby stay for storm jib and a 7/8 fractional which means a big main. But my LWL is 30' and with much longer we're talking bigger sail plan, more force yadda yadda. I'm set.

[READY2GO]

I agree "Stillraining" absolutly beautiful!

[Chesapeake]

Hi :
A little late but,
Thanks to all for the response on cutter rig for singlehanding,
and sorry for the digression.
-- Have a g'day mates ;-)

[Sailormann]

But as a general rule which rig does better in light air? If you used the same hull with the three different rigs, which one would be better ( by better I mean not setting still baking in the sun)? Lets say there is a 5 knot breeze and you are on a beam to broad reach.

The sloop is faster in all wind conditions. There are benefits to a split rig but speed is not one of them.

[David M]

I think you have to look at the fastest sailboats in the world. The sloop wins.

More sails per amount of sail area though makes it easier for those with a limited amount of crew.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Sailormann

The sloop is faster in all wind conditions. There are benefits to a split rig but speed is not one of them.

In the 80's Volvo ocean race Bruce Farr calculated a ketch design would win over the sloops. He proved to be correct and 84' Bruce Farr designed ketch, Steinlager, claimed line honors on every one of the six legs.
A sloop wins most races and will do better on average, but given specific wind conditions other sail plans can be faster.

I dont think this has much relevance to cruising sailors where there are far more important considerations than the outright speed with a racing crew and multiple spinakers etc

[bob perry]

I think you need to take a long look at the rig proprtions of that Farr ketch. It is far (ha) from being a typical ketch. In fact it's more like a small sloop chasing a big sloop. I suspect the choice of ketch rig was all about the ability to fly flying sails off the mizzen. This rig needs to be evaluated within the rating rule that the boat designed to conform to. Just like the yawls of the CCA era.

[Cheechako]

A mizzen would be useful at times, I certainly wouldnt shy away from a ketch rig. Although I might prefer the yawl....

[Kanani]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

A mizzen would be useful at times, I certainly wouldnt shy away from a ketch rig. Although I might prefer the yawl....

I hope that I don't offend anyne here but I feel that the typical yawl rig is a waste of rigging and sails.

About the only thing they are good for is setting while at anchor.

[MidLandOne]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

In the 80's Volvo ocean race Bruce Farr calculated a ketch design would win over the sloops. He proved to be correct and 84' Bruce Farr designed ketch, Steinlager, claimed line honors on every one of the six legs.
A sloop wins most races and will do better on average, but given specific wind conditions other sail plans can be faster...

There is a common misunderstanding about this and the following is what I understand reality to have been.

First, a minor point, it wasn't Farr who came up with the idea that ketches could be the best boats for the 89/90 Whitbread maxis, the idea was brought to him by several of the syndicates who realised that there were rule advantages in going to a ketch. It is fair to say that Farr took advantage of the rule as he was after all the designer. But it wasn't his idea and explains why some of his other maxis were not ketches in the same race, their syndicates did not bring the idea of the rule advantage to him as some others had.

Second, Steinlager and Fisher & Paykel were built as required for the Whitbread to meet the 1989 IOR rule for Maxis (70 foot rating, coming out around 80 foot), not as the fastest possible boats to get around such a course (should the race not have been rule constrained).

What several of the syndicates realised was that the 1989 IOR rule gave significant advantages to ketch rigs, some of which were that the mizzen was not penalised as much as a mainsail, mizzen staysails were only lightly penalised and as the main and mizzen masts were spread further apart a double gain was realised because the mizzen and mizzen staysails were rated even better again as well as giving a sailing advantage along the lines of being "two sloops following each other" as Bob has alluded to.

All this free sail area arising out of the rule had an increased advantage in that the race was mostly downhill as the Cape Town stop over was not used due to troubles there. That even being so I don't think many would claim that if the boats were not designed to meet the required rule, they would still have been ketches instead of sloops.

So these were not straight out fast racers and if one wishes to contend that claim one only has to look at their displacements, they were heavy boats.

In the end, if I recall correctly, the first four boats came in within a couple of days aggregated time of each other, the first two ketches (Steinlager 2 and Fisher & Paykel) followed by two sloops and the next a ketch. So even though there was a rule advantage for the ketches the sloops could keep up regardless of the rule burden on them. I believe that Steinlager managed to get itself the longest actual length under the Maxi rating at around 84 feet.

[James S]

I have to say I have never cruised on anything but a cutter and sloop, but from a pure gear sense, a ketch or schooner has another whole set of stuff.
It’s like two boats worth.

I have the same problem with catamarans ...two engines...exhausts...props...rudders....fuel systems....blah...blahhh

I just really like it simple, and accept the compromises that go with that, including not being able to look like the guys in stillrainings wonderful picture.