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Old 18-03-2011, 15:43   #61
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Re: Ketch Rig . . . Why ?

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Originally Posted by bob perry View Post
Dockhead:
I would never generalize about ketches. I would never generalize about sloops. There are good ketches and bad ketches and to pretend they are all endowed with the same sailing characteristics is just,,,,

You see now I have to pause because the last time I spoke my mind here I was censored.

Just like a cutter, a ketch does increase your sail combo opttions.
Sounds to me like EA32 has it figured out.
I notice your - as usual - gorgeous ketch has the main mast waaaay forward. I assume that's to keep center of pressure forward for balance. But why such a difference from regular ketches? Are they so badly designed? Or something else about your design that requires such radical measures?
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Old 18-03-2011, 15:48   #62
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Re: Ketch Rig . . . Why ?

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I notice your - as usual - gorgeous ketch has the main mast waaaay forward. I assume that's to keep center of pressure forward for balance. But why such a difference from regular ketches? Are they so badly designed? Or something else about your design that requires such radical measures?
I would have to assume he would like to keep the main over the COE just like on a sloop, just for some of the reasons already mentioned about cresting waves.
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Old 18-03-2011, 15:53   #63
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Re: Ketch Rig . . . Why ?

Dockhead:
There is nothing unusual about my ketch. I want the center of pressure forward so that full sail can be carried up to 20 knots apparent with ease without any need to luff or drop the mizzen for balance. Many ketches have to drop the mizzen in a breeze to get rid of helm. Mine will not be like that. When I do a new design lke this I refer back to my own work that I know intimately but I don't look back at older boats designed years ago. So much has changed and I have my own standards for helm balance. In hate a poorly balanced boat.
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Old 18-03-2011, 16:18   #64
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Re: Ketch Rig . . . Why ?

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Originally Posted by bob perry View Post
Dockhead:
There is nothing unusual about my ketch. I want the center of pressure forward so that full sail can be carried up to 20 knots apparent with ease without any need to luff or drop the mizzen for balance.
I agree completely, having the mizzen as far forward as possible allows for better overall balance in 20+ especially when running downwind with a big following sea, keeping the boat from squirming around when being pushed on the aft quarter. I used to drop the mizzen first, now it's the last thing I do and with the reef points all is good. The avitar photo was taken at 25Kn.
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Old 18-03-2011, 18:26   #65
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Re: Ketch Rig . . . Why ?

You should never be censored, Bob!
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Old 18-03-2011, 18:47   #66
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Re: Ketch Rig . . . Why ?

Okay, here I go again, I can't stop myself

The following quote is from Brian Toss while visiting Steve Dashew aboard Sundeer:

Quote:
We rounded a corner, the boat under those masts came into view, and Steve's voice faded away to a low hum. For there, sitting in an end slip, was a long, low, skinny, businesslike-yet-rakish, nearly flat-sheered, dull gray aesthetic challenge of a hull. It was dramatic, unlikely, like a sailing destroyer designed by Enzo Ferrari. It was so full of speed that I was surprised that the mooring lines were slack. But despite its air of urgency, of impatience, it was also somehow implacable, and curiously reassuring. It was an off-the-wall-yet-grounded paradox of a hull.
[...]
He went on for a while about bow entry angle, beam/length ratio, and mast compression. I nodded, looked aft, and said, "I don't recall your turning on the autopilot."
"Oh, my goodness, we forgot to steer."
And indeed the whole time this skinny, short-keeled (6'2", fully loaded) dart had been easing through a 3' to 4' sea, absolutely unattended, straight as a rail, even in puffs. Steve explained this in terms of a balanced canoe body, somehow relating this to battery stowage, 3" of foam insulation inside the hull, and the scantlings of the doghouse. Because the breeze was rising we did turn on the autopilot as our conversation continued. I must confess that I missed some of Mr. Dashew's subsequent points; I was watching the autopilot, waiting for the LED to blink to show that the unit was working. Mostly it stayed dark.


You can find the whole interview here: Brion Toss Yacht Riggers Fairleads Newsletter

cheers,
Nick.

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Old 18-03-2011, 19:19   #67
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And of course, how about all those other types of ketches such as the cat ketch with free standing carbon fiber masts?

We get into other aspects of a 2 masted boats.

Eric Sponberg has on his web site strong arguments for such designs as well as using the S# to generally see where a boat may be rated in terms of speed - Taking into account the design ratios of (drag and power).

Sailboats are personal choices, we all know this to be true. Experience on different boats helps one to determine the values one makes upon selection and desirability for a certain sailboat.
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Old 18-03-2011, 19:19   #68
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Re: Ketch Rig . . . Why ?

Jedi:
Years ago, speaking to Steve I realized that he and I did not share a common language of yacht design.

I don't buy it, I told Steve so, but if you do, Then take a big dab of it, rub it on the spot where it hurts and then drink a glass. You'll sail better in the morning.

Or not.

And if you really want me to be censored again just bring up Eric Sponberg.
Make a list of the great Eric Sponberg boats and get back to me. It should not take too long.

ea32:
There are those who would disagree with you.
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Old 18-03-2011, 19:46   #69
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Re: Ketch Rig . . . Why ?

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Let's just define the negative (there's only one) of a ketch rig for cruisers: you can't have a fixed bimini over the cockpit as it interferes with the mizzen boom/vang/sheet.

Ketches rule!

ciao!
Nick.
Mine works just fine thankyou.
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Old 18-03-2011, 20:25   #70
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Re: Ketch Rig . . . Why ?

Nice ketch.
Perfect example of why I say you can't generalize about ketches.
Look at the bone in it's tail. Tell me that boat wasn't carrying an armload of helm when that pic was taken.

But it is stupid to think that the rest of us can afford such a craft.
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Old 18-03-2011, 20:51   #71
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Re: Ketch Rig . . . Why ?

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Tell me that boat wasn't carrying an armload of helm when that pic was taken.
I can tell you Steve was probably yelling at the helicopter to hurry up and really make sure he got the pics while trying to keep it looking like it does.

I know that some people don't believe in the Dashew designs. But somehow they do take the records and buyers are lined up for their turn of owning one. I believe Beowulf still holds the Caribbean 1500 record when Steve set it and he has been at it with power boats for years now.

I'm one of the few owners of a Dashew ketch and can confirm that the story from Brian Toss is true (why wouldn't it be?): they go straight as if on a track, without any attempt at steering them. We have been sailing without AP for hours before discovering it.

cheers,
Nick.
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Old 19-03-2011, 09:08   #72
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Re: Ketch Rig . . . Why ?

Jedi:
Please don't get me wrong. I love those big Dashew ketches. I like the way they look and I like the concept. I have two copies of Steve's book, one on the boat and one in the office.
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Old 19-03-2011, 23:45   #73
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Re: Ketch Rig . . . Why ?

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I have two reefs in my new mizzen. Well worth it.
Maybe I could do the same, but I am guessing that you have a lot more sail area? Likewise, I probably only need 2 reefs in the main instead of 3? I suppose one advantage of the smaller sails in general is that you can carry the sail and reef a lot later.
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Old 19-03-2011, 23:53   #74
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Dashew ketches

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob perry View Post
Jedi:
Please don't get me wrong. I love those big Dashew ketches. I like the way they look and I like the concept. I have two copies of Steve's book, one on the boat and one in the office.
I have a few 1998 Cruising World's and Yachting Worlds on board and have read a few articles and advertisements about the same over the last few days. While the boats are still out of my budget I am guessing the book might be worth buying? From what I read in a review it covers everything from hull design to upholstery?

On the topic I saw a review on a book about the Sparkman & Stephens designs from a similar date that looked extremely interesting. It covered all their classics, which I am sure would include the odd ketch and yawl.

See,

Amazon.com: Lines: A Half-Century of Yacht Designs by Sparkman & Stephens, 1930-1980 (9781567921953): Olin J., II Stephens, J. Carter Brown: Books
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Old 20-03-2011, 03:03   #75
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Re: Ketch Rig . . . Why ?

Naw. Been there, done that.
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