Ketch rig - utilizing its full potential

[CharlieCobra]

She's a pretty girl alright and she loves to hike her skirt and run off from other boats. Not too shabby for twenty dollar boat.

[Heikki]

Originally Posted by CharlieCobra

Not too shabby for twenty dollar boat.

Twenty dollars! Wow. I thought we had the price set right when we bought our Stormwind. Now, I suddenly feel we paid at least 1000 times too much...

Awesome picture, Charlie. For me it has always been hard to catch the sea well on a picture. But you sure have a nice shot.



I just added some pictures of our Columba Livia on my profile on this forum, if someone is interested. More details and pictrures of our boat at our simple website at www.elisanet.fi/clsailing

[CharlieCobra]

Nice blue water boat ya got there. Quite a bit more comfortable than Oh Joy is.

[Dockhead]

Hi all you ketch guys:

I'm in the process of trying to buy a boat and I'm deciding between a 49 foot cutter and a 55 foot ketch. This will be for cruising in the Med, maybe an ARC and some time in the Caribbean, and most likely somewhat short handed.

I am well aware of the great benefits of the ketch rig on long passages and in heavy weather. But I also understand that ketches don't point as well as sloops. Pointing ability is important to me -- I like to get where I want to go, and I hate being forced to motor upwind (my present boat, a badly rigged old sloop, will hardly tack through less than 110 degrees on the GPS and it drives me crazy).

So -- what do you think? What's the likely difference in real tack angle for boats like this?

Thanks and cheers, Dockhead

[Heikki]

According to our GPS we tack in 85 degrees. It matches with the wind data which shows us pointing typically from 42 to 43 degrees off true wind. We have been happy with that - we expected much worse. The boat will point some degrees higher before being totally in irons, however, with our current setup it is not worth of aiming higher than 43 degrees. After that we will start to loose speed and slip leeward.

I am looking forward for the next season when we will be able to sheet the mizzen tighter in. Now we have pretty much been tacking with Genoa (+staysail) and Main only. It is unlikely to improve the angle but I'm looking forward to gaining some speed.

This is also greatly a matter of hull and keel shape and how you can sheet your headsails. Ketches can point well or badly depending on various factors.

Nick of s/v Jedi is the trimming specialist on this track. What would he say about the matter?

[Joli]

Good read.

I think your decision (ketch vs cutter) is how large a sail you are willing to deal with and a sloop with waterline and draft is going to get you to the weather mark first.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Hi all you ketch guys:

I'm in the process of trying to buy a boat and I'm deciding between a 49 foot cutter and a 55 foot ketch. This will be for cruising in the Med, maybe an ARC and some time in the Caribbean, and most likely somewhat short handed.

I am well aware of the great benefits of the ketch rig on long passages and in heavy weather. But I also understand that ketches don't point as well as sloops. Pointing ability is important to me -- I like to get where I want to go, and I hate being forced to motor upwind (my present boat, a badly rigged old sloop, will hardly tack through less than 110 degrees on the GPS and it drives me crazy).

So -- what do you think? What's the likely difference in real tack angle for boats like this?

Thanks and cheers, Dockhead

[Dockhead]

Nick, what do you say?

85 degrees on the GPS sounds good to me. By my standards, that's d**d weatherly. Our sloop will hardly tack inside 110 degrees which drives me crazy; it's almost impossible to make any real progress upwind so we end up motoring all the bloody time. But this boat (a Pearson 365) is smaller, has a long keel, and is badly rigged (with a roller furling main which doesn't work the way it's supposed to).

The ketch I'm looking at is much longer (55 feet, 43 at the waterline), has a deep fin keel (7'7" draft) and is well-rigged with fully battened main and fully battened mizzen. Maybe I'm worrying needlessly. But I really want to be able to make decent progress upwind!

Originally Posted by Heikki

According to our GPS we tack in 85 degrees. It matches with the wind data which shows us pointing typically from 42 to 43 degrees off true wind. We have been happy with that - we expected much worse. The boat will point some degrees higher before being totally in irons, however, with our current setup it is not worth of aiming higher than 43 degrees. After that we will start to loose speed and slip leeward.

I am looking forward for the next season when we will be able to sheet the mizzen tighter in. Now we have pretty much been tacking with Genoa (+staysail) and Main only. It is unlikely to improve the angle but I'm looking forward to gaining some speed.

This is also greatly a matter of hull and keel shape and how you can sheet your headsails. Ketches can point well or badly depending on various factors.

Nick of s/v Jedi is the trimming specialist on this track. What would he say about the matter?

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Nick, what do you say?

Well... I can do these 85 degree as shown on GPS tacks but have some trouble with this approach. First is that GPS COG (course over ground) just isn't the right tool for this. For example, a running current will defeat this method.

I prefer to look at TWA: True Wind Angle. Most decent instruments can show you this. Our B&G Hydra 2000 also shows you something like DTM: Distance Made Good (working from memory). This shows your speed towards wind-direction. This is the best tool to use. It shows me that we perform best on a true wind angle of 50 degrees. We can still sail well up to 40 degrees, but the speed lost is more than what is gained by pointing higher.

So, translated to tacks as shown on GPS, that makes 100 degrees our optimal tack-angle. There's much more to this of course, like the preferred tack etc. Conditions always make one tack better than the other even when the destination is exactly upwind.

Also, the type of boat makes a lot of difference. Some might be better off pointing a bit higher. Sloops do, but also ketches with different hull shapes etc. The longer the boat, the deeper the keel, the better shape of the keel (airfoil fin) and rudder, the quicker it will be upwind. Length of the boat (or better waterline length) makes a huge difference. Sloops are quicker but a 50' sloop will still see my stern because we are 64' (and our waterline is also 64' !!). But for cruising it isn't too important. I have seen 47' sloops going faster than us (Jedi wakes the racing minds of normally slower boats) but they didn't realize we were not interested in racing them and drinking cocktails in the cockpit instead. They might also have failed to notice that our main wasn't even hoisted (this really happened with a Beneteau First 47 ;-)

The boat you describe sounds like a good choice.

ciao!
Nick.

[Dockhead]

Cool, thanks.

I should have said: when you are sailing at the optimum close hauled true wind angle, what is your real practical tacking angle? Sounds like 100 degrees. That's 10 degrees better than our present boat. Maybe it's enough to actually make progress upwind in practical situations.

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Well... I can do these 85 degree as shown on GPS tacks but have some trouble with this approach. First is that GPS COG (course over ground) just isn't the right tool for this. For example, a running current will defeat this method.

I prefer to look at TWA: True Wind Angle. Most decent instruments can show you this. Our B&G Hydra 2000 also shows you something like DTM: Distance Made Good (working from memory). This shows your speed towards wind-direction. This is the best tool to use. It shows me that we perform best on a true wind angle of 50 degrees. We can still sail well up to 40 degrees, but the speed lost is more than what is gained by pointing higher.

So, translated to tacks as shown on GPS, that makes 100 degrees our optimal tack-angle. There's much more to this of course, like the preferred tack etc. Conditions always make one tack better than the other even when the destination is exactly upwind.

Also, the type of boat makes a lot of difference. Some might be better off pointing a bit higher. Sloops do, but also ketches with different hull shapes etc. The longer the boat, the deeper the keel, the better shape of the keel (airfoil fin) and rudder, the quicker it will be upwind. Length of the boat (or better waterline length) makes a huge difference. Sloops are quicker but a 50' sloop will still see my stern because we are 64' (and our waterline is also 64' !!). But for cruising it isn't too important. I have seen 47' sloops going faster than us (Jedi wakes the racing minds of normally slower boats) but they didn't realize we were not interested in racing them and drinking cocktails in the cockpit instead. They might also have failed to notice that our main wasn't even hoisted (this really happened with a Beneteau First 47 ;-)

The boat you describe sounds like a good choice.

ciao!
Nick.

[s/v Jedi]

It is enough, no problems. Remember that the apparent wind angle will be 30 degrees or just a little more. Often, when I say that we sail optimal at 50 degrees True, sailors reply that they do better like 30 degrees.... but they are talking apparent. To be honest, I think a ketch will be somewhere between 32-35 degrees apparent sailing upwind as best as possible. That's why the sloop wins this part, they do 2-5 degrees better.

ciao!
Nick.

[Dockhead]

So 2 to 5 degrees better true -- that would be 4 to 10 degrees better real tacking angle. Big difference in making upwind progress, at least, at 10 degrees difference it will be very noticeable. But still -- that much better than what I've got now so probably ok in view of all the other advantages of the ketch rig (of which beauty is not the least significant).

[s/v Jedi]

Well, yes, the better angle of a sloop is a tough pill to swallow for ketch owners but remember that a big ketch is still faster upwind than a smaller sloop. Water-line length is as big a factor as the type of rig for upwind performance.

Also, in big seas, a sloop must also accept a wider angle for more power or the waves will stop forward progress. In the Caribbean this is basically the case for 90% of the time in the winter season so differences diminish.

I hate it that I have to admit that we do a lot of upwind sailing. This is because we refuse to do that milk-run thing and go to places most circumnavigators skip. But it is during these upwind passages that I notice we're as fast as a 50' sloop and when the night comes I feel we're better off as we lower the main and go into a very comfortable night-mode cooking dinner and relaxing while the sloops are reefing during squalls and basically continue working all night. At first light our boat wakes up again, we hoist the main and still have the sloop in visual range !!
Maybe it's the sailors that are different; maybe the sloop crews don't care about comfort as much... I would think they can put an extra reef in for a quiet night too? I did when we sailed sloops...

But to get back to the thread subject: the full potential of ketches come with broad reaching and a mizzen spinnaker is the secret weapon. You can't have a backstay on the main mast for this so that limits this to very few ketches or one has to change the rigging (triatic stay only or aft-swept spreader with running backstays to masthead like we have). The mizzen spinnaker is also an easy sail to handle. No poles needed, all work is done on the mid-deck, can lower it by dropping into the mainsail (we use socks however which is easier) etc.

ciao!
Nick.

[Christian Van H]

Hey Nick! Two things; Any pics of the mizzen chute flying? and, don't you think there is a slight danger in Triatic stay only rigs?

[s/v Jedi]

I have no photo of Jedi flying spinnakers. But my avatar shows Beowulf with everything up!

I also included a photo of another Sundeer 64. Here you can also see the bowsprit deployed and the main running backstay set without interfering with the mizzen spinnaker. I personally think the spinnakers are a bit conservative/small here. Ours are big like on Beowulf but I will probably add a set of reachers if/when we get to cruising grounds where they can be of use.

Triatic stays: I see two negatives actually: the biggest one is that birds love them so you have to clean up the mess on deck every day. The other one is often discussed about loosing both masts instead of just one. I don't think that this would stop me from having a triatic stay though...

I think Dashew got it right without the standing backstays but I also see examples on how not to do that (like Hunter). Also, if you want to change to that you will need new chainplates and spreaders and capshrouds and intermediates and masthead runners and all that is a big and expensive job.

ciao!
Nick.

[Christian Van H]

Nick, in the pic, do they have one of two running backstays removed in order to fly the mizzen spinnaker?