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Old 05-02-2014, 08:07   #31
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Re: Keels

Great pic. I'll bet that old double ender goes upwind like a witch!!
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Old 05-02-2014, 08:24   #32
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Re: Keels

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Undercutter:
I have never heard of a full keel dropping off or breaking when run aground, and you will probably run aground at least once, or more as I have.
Absolutely, which is why I was so glad that the first boat that I had was a CT 43 Mermaid. Ran aground in South Andros in foul weather trying to get into a harbour that they quit dredging when the mail boat quit running there. Hung up for 2 days until a couple of power boats pulled us off. They only showed there due to a fishing accident and it was the closest place that they could evac the guy by helicopter. We were hung up for 2 days and listed over so bad on the low tide that the seawater ran up through the sink drains. We tried pulling ourselves off by setting anchors and winching on the high tide but only managed to get into worse shape as she was then laying partially on rock under the stern. With a fetch off the bay she lifted just enough to pound for a couple of hours and I could only think the worst but when we hauled her next there wasn't a scratch on her and no indication of any problems at all with the keel or rudder. Draught was 6' 2" and there was lots of places we couldn't get into in the Bahamas.
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Old 05-02-2014, 08:34   #33
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Re: Keels

I'd say it depends on how you plan on using the boat. If you are likely to be racing it, a fin keel would be the order of the day. If you are going on all day or multi-day cruises I like full keel boats. If just day sailing it on weekends, either one would work, but the fin keel would be easier to manouver around the docks.

Back when I had a fin keeled Catalina 30, I could trim it so that it had a light enough helm that it could be controlled with a couple of fingers on the tiller, but you had to keep you hand on the tiller. If you removed it, within a few seconds, the boat would be going in another direction. When I upgraded to the full keeled Tayana 37, I was amazed at how well it tracked and held a course. This is great for long distance cruising, but steering it around the docks certainly takes some thinking ahead compared to a fin keeled boat.

The keel is certainly part of the equation, but should really not be the overriding factor in your selecting a boat.
  • Will you be sleeping aboard? Make sure the bed is large enough and comfortable for you.
  • Don't forget the galley setup (the tiny sinks in the Tayana drove my wife bonkers when we first started cruising it).
  • Is there a place below that you find physically comfortable to sit?
  • How many people will be actually sailing it? A boat that is easy for a crew of 3 or 4 can be a challenge for a single hander.
  • What are your storage and tankage needs?
All boats are a long series of trade-offs and the keel type is just one of them.
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Old 05-02-2014, 08:54   #34
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Re: Keels

Everybody who has had both ... is spot on...
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Old 05-02-2014, 09:36   #35
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Re: Keels

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Great pic. I'll bet that old double ender goes upwind like a witch!!
I don't think that double ender is very old.

Steve
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Old 05-02-2014, 09:36   #36
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Re: Keels

Love keel discussions! I've always been partial to full keels, mostly because they often hang beneath salty looking hulls/topsides that I prefer aesthetically. Not too long ago I asked Bob Perry to share his thoughts about keel types and was enlightened by his perspective: Keels According to Perry
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Old 05-02-2014, 11:02   #37
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Re: Keels

I'd like to say that your comment regarding having to go faster through the water when docking a full keel is dead wrong. A cross wind or current certainly means you need a bit more speed, but no more than needed on a fin keeled boat and in my opinion, the best speed for maneuvering around the docks is as slow as possible while still maintaining steerage. i.e. barring cross wind/current, dead slow.

I try never to be moving around a dock faster than I am willing to hit it.

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Old 05-02-2014, 12:19   #38
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Re: Keels

I know that the boat pic is a fairly new boat but who designs a boat these days as a double ender and puts that ultra modern shape, deep spade and deep fin keel. I'll tell you who, some guy who wants the boat to look older but will clean your clock when you try and keep up....cool boat!
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Old 05-02-2014, 13:12   #39
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Re: Keels

Now, Snaggletooth, THAT is a keel. Only down here in the Gulf we would call it an anchor.
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Old 05-02-2014, 13:41   #40
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Re: Keels

That long, skinny double ender 62' LOA is brand new and designed by he who was banned from this site, nasty old Bob Perry.
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Old 05-02-2014, 14:17   #41
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Re: Keels

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That long, skinny double ender 62' LOA is brand new and designed by he who was banned from this site, nasty old Bob Perry.
Bob is nasty, do tell, do tell
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Old 05-02-2014, 14:24   #42
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Re: Keels

A good driver will park a long keel boat on a penny. An ignorant will smash an 'easy' hull into anything and everything.

So, in my book, skills rule, closely followed by available berthing space.

b.
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Old 05-02-2014, 18:00   #43
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Re: Keels

And Andros hasn't changed since then. I was just there in 2013 and there was no buoy/marker in sight, so entering a harbor was all feel and luck. I had friends with a 6'+ draft and they couldn't get into some of the anchorages that we could with a 5'2" on our P-424. There seems to be a big difference down there between a 5 and 6 foot draft. I would live in fear after grounding a fin keel/ spade rudder as hard as I have grounded my full/modified keel. I was awash like you were when I ran aground at of Dauphin Island with 30 kt winds blowing me on deeper. Unfortunately I tried to harden sail and lay her off the bar, but only drove on further. Had to be pulled off by a big power boat. Had a first-time sailor with me that day. Hope I didn't ruin him. So here is my summary about keels: If I am racing or daysailing in the same known waters then give me the speedier fin keel. But if I am sometimes arriving in strange land-falls and harbors when I am tired cold and wet after a crossing, I want a solid keel between me and the unknown.
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Old 05-02-2014, 18:15   #44
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Re: Keels

Gotta agree there. My friend is sitting on his full keel at low tide tonight a few hundred meters away because his charts did not match up. At worst the bottom of his keel will be "sand"ed. The trailing bottom edge of my cutaway keel is missing a centimetre of fairing after backing off a sandbar a month or so ago. Would hate to be trying these "tricks" in a fin keeler with a deep rudder.

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Old 05-02-2014, 18:18   #45
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Re: Keels

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Originally Posted by svHannabel View Post
Love keel discussions! I've always been partial to full keels, mostly because they often hang beneath salty looking hulls/topsides that I prefer aesthetically. Not too long ago I asked Bob Perry to share his thoughts about keel types and was enlightened by his perspective: Keels According to Perry
I like Bob Perry's straightforward manner and open mind when it comes to design, there is no perfect boat, just the one that's perfect to the particular owner.
There are a number of traditional looking boats out there with sneaky fast underbodies, not all fin keel, spade rudder hulls either, just well designed hulls, the variations are endless. That's what makes it so much fun.
No I wouldn't want to smack a deep fin keel on a hard object, I've seen many insurance boats that did, but in between those and the full keel boats there are a lot of designs that will work and have the margin of safety needed in a cruising boat.
Anything will break if you hit it hard enough often enough, how much do you need?
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