Keel Types - What Is Your Preference, and Why ?

[mintyspilot]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Our experience of buying a yacht seemed to be going nowhere ....

In that respect I am sure it will no different from selecting a second hand car. Lots of dross to pick through...

Originally Posted by Pete7

Somewhat disolutioned I took a trip down the Moodys second hand boat show (each Sept)

Where is it? I Googled it but only found old shows.

Originally Posted by Pete7

and found 5 Moody 31's, a 346 and a couple of larger sizes. 1 of the M31s was superb, 3 were very good and the final 1 scruffy and neglected, although the price reflected this. However the expresion of my 13 year old when she smelt the heads "wiff" throughout the boat said it all, no way was her mother ever going to accept this one.

Sounds like houses. The first thing you do is fling out all the previous owner's junk and scrub the place down, then start again.

Originally Posted by Pete7

Now in our 3rd year with half a dozen channel crossings under our belt she really looks after us. ...If you are looking for live aboard for a few months you will probably want the slightly larger 34/346/35/36 range or the last 333's which have a walk through to the stern cabin

That's what I figured.

Originally Posted by Pete7

I think one problem choosing a yacht is possibly too much choice with so many different makes and models. Don't overlook chartering to get feel of what then are like. We chartered a Bavaria 34, then bought a Moody.

I get the impression that Bavarias are "Ford Escorts" of the sea. but the chartering is a good idea. Thanks for that.

[forsailbyowner]

I chose a modified full keel. My reasons are ; no keel bolts and associated high load areas associated with such, no worries of crevice corrosion of keel bolts, ability to stand on keel for maintenance outside boatyard, protected rudder and prop, simple shafting, bearing configuration, tracking ability downwind and in rough seas. Have seen quite a few people fixing delamination of hull and surrounding structure along with the keel to hull joint. I feel much more secure knowing mine is an integral molded in part of the boat that acts as a backbone instead of a vulnerable appendage.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by mintyspilot

TIme will not be a factor. I will not be racing anywhere.

Our Philosophy too

Originally Posted by mintyspilot

Reports on this seem to vary, but everyone seems to agree that bliges are "slower and doesn't point as well". I have seen some comments that lengthening the bilge keels has eliminated some of this problem, but where do you get a longer bilge keel when you need one? .

You have no chance, it would cost a fortune.

Originally Posted by mintyspilot

That is more what we want. The plan is to potter round the UK for a while then move down to France, Spain and into the Med. It is no problem if it takes a year or two, we are in no rush. If the boat does 5kts, then the boat does 5kts. .

We would like to do the french canals a some point. With a 1.2m draft we can even do the Midi and Villanes/Rance canals in Brittany

Originally Posted by mintyspilot

I've looked at the brochure for the Moody 54. Afterwards I dowsed myself in cold water to cool down......

Fabulous aren't they, we drooled over a blue hulled one in Swanwick a couple of years ago, but I would have kittens trying to park that in some of the places we have been.

Originally Posted by mintyspilot

and the wife is also very good at upholstery and sewing. She even has a certification in upholstery and another in Electrical Engineering so with a bit of luck.........

Now they are valuable skills on a yacht

Pete

[mintyspilot]

Originally Posted by forsailbyowner

no keel bolts and associated high load areas associated with such, no worries of crevice corrosion of keel bolts, ability to stand on keel for maintenance outside boatyard, protected rudder and prop, simple shafting, bearing configuration, tracking ability downwind and in rough seas. Have seen quite a few people fixing delamination of hull and surrounding structure along with the keel to hull joint.

Hmmm... just when you think you have things sorted...

All good points. How deep are these sorts of keels (in general). Bilges seem to be about 3 1/2 ft, fins about 5ft and deep fin 7 ft.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by mintyspilot

Oh I will, but point my was perhaps badly made. Who would buy a 30 year old car (or even a 15 year old car) for everyday general use on the road? Yet a boat of that age is not, seemingly, past its best. I will be buying the youngest boat that meets my budget and requirements and since time will not be an issue for me and I'm handy with tools I will be able to do a great deal of work myself if needs be. I'm also a software developer so the IT side holds no fears and the wife is also very good at upholstery and sewing. She even has a certification in upholstery and another in Electrical Engineering so with a bit of luck...

Who knows. We might wind up with a bilge-keel Moody and a completely re-upholstered interior and all the ship systems in tip-top condition.

A good yacht is not a disposable thing like a car so naturally a 20-year old yacht is completely different from a 20-year old car. Our previous boat was made in 1980 and was still going strong (but on the basis of very large annual investment of money and elbow grease).

Just keep in mind -- keeping a yacht is a nonstop, never-ending war between the owner and the inexorable process of deterioration of the whole collection of components and systems. A brand-new yacht comes with a list of faults, and throughout the life of that yacht the list of faults and maintenance items due, and improvements and upgrades, can never be reduced to zero no matter how much money and time the owner spends on it. Victory in the war with deterioration means items on the list are eliminated more or less as fast as new items appear. The thing is not to start yacht ownership already behind the curve, because you will never catch up, and you will get discouraged. If you buy an older boat, buy one which has been fanatically maintained and upgraded, and survey it ruthlessly.

The fact that you are handy with tools and like to tinker is very good. Because most yacht owners spend two or three days working on the boat for every day they sail it. If you don't enjoy working on the boat, the whole experience will be unsatisfying.

Don't let that put you off. I love working on my baby; it's almost as fun as sailing her. And although the expense is incredible -- beyond your wildest estimates -- I can't think of anything more fun and satisfying to spend money on, other than perhaps a nubile mistress, but that would get me into far greater trouble . . . so all in all, the boat is very satisfying.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by mintyspilot

Where is it? I Googled it but only found old shows .

It will be the same time as Southampton Boat Show, so normally each Sept. However they may run Spring version, worth a check. Moodys boat yard was on the River Hamble at Swanick, but they sold up to Premier Marinas:

Swanwick Marina, Hamble, Southampton | Marina Berths | Marinas UK | Boatyard Services | Boat Sal

Oh, just seen they have been taken over by Ancasta, however the show both Spring and Autumn ones were very popular so no doubt they will continue. Well run too, you register and then they allow you to draw the keys to a yacht you are interested in. Brokers leave you alone until you make the approach, finance and insurance brokers on hand and of course the Moody Owners Association ready to welcome new members

Pete

[nautical62]

My first cruiser was a bilge keel. (Westerly Centaur) I absolutely loved it and would have purchased a Konsort for my last boat if I could have found one on the market.


It had a larger wetted surface and did not point as well. Mine was heavy displacement for it's size. However, I think most non-bilge keel heavier displacement , shallow draft boats don't point well or go fast in light air. This is not unique to bilge keel boats. I felt the keels were solid and it was stored on the hard, on the keels much of the year. Leaking through the keel bolts is a problem with some of the older model Westerly boats. Another issue is many have shallow bilges.

Another thing to consider with bilge keels is that your draft when sailing issues are opposite of single keel boats. Your draft will be more when heeled and less when flat. This means if you hit bottom, the fact the boat stops healing may cause enough draft reduction to unground you. The disadvantage is if you are stuck flat with both keels on the ground, you have fewer options than a single keel boat.

For me the real big advantage was the shallow draft it provided. Since I like sailing in the shallow water of the Bahamas, draft is of a big concern to me. The ability to sit on the bottom is nice, but not as important to me as draft. I'd never consider a fin keel for that reason. Obviously where you are, the ability to sit on the bottom is probably a higher priority.

My Hunter 30 has a wing keel with a draft of only 4'3". I feel it points reasonably well and is much better in light air than my Westerly was. A bilge keel boat would have been about a foot less draft, but still this is not a bad option in my opinion.

At one time I owned a cruising trimaran with a board in the trunk that could be raised. This allowed shallow draft, but for me the potential problems were not worth it. I felt the board was much more prone to damage and damage to the trunk which would be very difficult to deal with underway. Anything that swings or lifts, is more likely to fail or leak, than a fixed keel.

Of course every cruising situation is different. For some, performance is more important than draft.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The thing is not to start yacht ownership already behind the curve, because you will never catch up, and you will get discouraged.....

I love working on my baby; it's almost as fun as sailing her.

Well said

Pete

[Randyonr3]

Originally Posted by forsailbyowner

Have seen quite a few people fixing delamination of hull and surrounding structure along with the keel to hull joint.

I know this statement is just "HearSay" but its also damaging to the reputation of any builder designing a fin keel..
In over 40 years of sailing/racing/ & cruising, and all the time I've spent around boat yards, never have I seen a boat being worked on due to structural issues of the keel to hull joint..
Myself, I've run aground more times than I care to admit, in a number of fin keel boats and have never had an issue..

[zeehag]

i have a sloop with modified fin keel and spade rudder---goood for day sailing and short weekend hopping and racing...i have a full keel attached rudder ketch-goood for long distance cruising in comfort and smoother riding at anchor---i am sailing now on board a friends boat with fin keel and spade rudder--isnt fun in bad weather, except for sailing realllly reallly fast---lol-----take your choice and have fun!!

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by forsailbyowner

I chose a modified full keel. My reasons are ; no keel bolts and associated high load areas associated with such, no worries of crevice corrosion of keel bolts, ability to stand on keel for maintenance outside boatyard, protected rudder and prop, simple shafting, bearing configuration, tracking ability downwind and in rough seas. Have seen quite a few people fixing delamination of hull and surrounding structure along with the keel to hull joint. I feel much more secure knowing mine is an integral molded in part of the boat that acts as a backbone instead of a vulnerable appendage.

I hate to be argumentative, but having owned a modified full keel boat I think I have some basis for an opinion.

IMHO, a modified full keel boat is the worst of both worlds -- poor performance, and yet lacking the draft and ground-taking advantage of bilge keels. I loved our old boat dearly, and spent thousands of happy miles cruising her over 10 years, but she sailed -- well, like a pig, as other boats of this type in my experience do.

Performance is a huge factor on a sailboat even if you're not hurrying or racing. A good performing sailboat is just much more fun to sail -- it will keep moving in lighter air, it gives you a much wider choice of course to take, is safer because you can outrun weather or sail off lee shores, you can make longer passages -- it makes a huge difference. Going from our old boat with the semi-long keel to our new one with the bulb keel meant going from motoring about 50% of the time (not enough wind, or wind always "on the nose") to motoring nearly 0% of the time not counting getting in and out of port. It has transformed the whole experience of sailing for us. Did I mention that on top of all that bulb keel boats, because the ballast is concentrated at the bottom of the keel rather than being spread throughout it, are much stiffer and more stable, than boats with other kinds of keels. Downside (there's always something) is that if you go aground, you get much more stuck when that bulb buries itself.

My advice is do not give up performance, when you choose a boat, unless you are getting something really, really good in return. The coast- and estuary-crawling possibilities of bilge keels, and the dramatically greater safety in case of touching ground, the ease of maintenance, are really good things which for many people will be worth give up performance for. But with a semi-long keel you've got none of these advantages.

Now some so-called "racer-cruisers" go to extremes with their keels and rudders -- I'm talking about 36 foot boats with razor-thin, high-aspect keels with 9 foot drafts -- you know who you are. In my opinion that's no good for a cruiser. Even worse are the totally unsupported, thin, spade rudders which are just disasters waiting to happen, as far as I'm concerned. But you can have a high-performance underbody without all of that -- with reasonable draft, with massive keel construction, and with a strong skeg-hung or at least semi-skeg hung rudder for strength.

[mintyspilot]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Just keep in mind -- keeping a yacht is a nonstop, never-ending war between the owner and the inexorable process of deterioration of the whole collection of components and systems

I'm not really arguing with that, but it could be said of any hobby or activity - even just day-to-day life. I recently spent a whack of money on the wife's car just because things like exhausts and several tyres came up together. In houses, a faulty boiler is a wallet-lightening experience, even just decorating a room. All human activity has a cost. I intend to dispose of one set of costs and acquire a different set.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

A brand-new yacht comes with a list of faults,

That statement alone makes me want to cry.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The fact that you are handy with tools and like to tinker is very good. Because most yacht owners spend two or three days working on the boat for every day they sail it. If you don't enjoy working on the boat, the whole experience will be unsatisfying.

Indeed

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Don't let that put you off. I love working on my baby; it's almost as fun as sailing her. And although the expense is incredible -- beyond your wildest estimates -- I can't think of anything more fun and satisfying to spend money on, other than perhaps a nubile mistress, but that would get me into far greater trouble . . . so all in all, the boat is very satisfying.

I refer you to the late Mr George Best ex Man Utd who once said "I spent most of my money on booze, women and fast cars. The rest of it I just wasted".

[barnakiel]

I like the deepest, finest, canting keel with the heaviest bulb - when racing. And the longest, heaviest keel with keel/stern-hung rudder - when cruising.

The in-betweens? Well, some are better than others, some suck.

Have seen a couple of bilge-keelers with always happy owners onboard ... guess they must be OK.

BTW - You can also sit on the mud/sand if you get a lift-keel, like the OVNI etc..

In any case - do get some keel!

b.

[forsailbyowner]

Dockhead, argue all you want you won't change my mind. I've sailed bulb keels, they suck downwind. No advantages to modified full keel? what about downwind tracking, protected rudder and prop. Shallow draft 3'11" no keelbolts, ability to stand on keel to work on avoiding yard fees. Upon grounding spins around and motors out 90% of time.

I sail more than 90% OF time when offshore(not bays ICW or rivers). If winds are on nose I wait. Let me guess your pig was a thirty something boat your comparing to a 54 ft boat. Maybe you needed new sails or trimming experience on your semi full keel pig, my boat performs just fine as long as I keep the keel down and point no closer than 50deg.

[Yachts66]

My first boat was a center boarder; my second a 3/4 keel, now I have a fin keel with skegged rudder. My next boat will be a bilge keel, and I can't wait to get her! For a cruising boat the very small loss in performance is of no consequence. Shallow draft is a very important issue in some areas. The ability to stand "on her feet" is a very nice thing to have almost anywhere.

I notice Bruce Roberts is now offering bilge keels on several of his models. If anyone has their ear to the market it is Bruce, so that ought to tell you something.

Regards,

Thomas