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Old 29-01-2017, 11:16   #16
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Re: Keel problems! Your opinion .

Doesn't matter what brand it is, this can happen with any bolt on keel. Internal ballast keels have their own problems, probably just as bad.

As above, hopefully the bad glass is just an added on layer to fair the joint. Grind it off and move on. If you're doing the work yourself, this is time consuming but not expensive. I just replaced the bolts on my 1969 Columbia 36 for under $500, including the yard charges for the extra lift. If you're hiring it out, you're screwed.

When you put it back together, bed the joint with 3M 5200, despite all the posts on these forums saying not to use it anywhere. This joint is what it was invented for, and is one of the two places on the boat where it is the right stuff. The other is the hull/ deck joint.
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Old 29-01-2017, 11:27   #17
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Re: Keel problems! Your opinion .

If you dont have 2 left hands , you can do it yourself ...
I did it alone on a 30" with jacks, the main difficult is often to cut the putty seal which sometimes holds alone the keel without bolts!
The joint must remain flexible (it can be painted), covering it with laminate is a mistake.
the keel/shell interface must remain flexible (it can be painted), covering it with laminate is a mistake ...
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Old 29-01-2017, 11:27   #18
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Re: Keel problems! Your opinion .

I am only going by what I see on the picture here.
Before you even start to consider the fix you will need to know the extent of the damage. What you show is only the exterior of the boat and the picture shows what looks like osmosis. Remember that this is water that migrates from the outside in.
You may want to consider a form of NDT (non destructive test) that will help you discover how much damage has occurred before tearing the boat apart.
A simple dye check might determine if you have water migrating through the keel bolts. The other simple test would be to do a tap test (providing you are not deaf) on both the inside of the bilge and the outside of the keel joint. Where it is soft (dull thud) will require attention.
There is also ultrasonic testing that will determine if the fiberglass has disbonded.
Once you have discovered how much damage you have you can then figure the best repair for your boat.
Last bit of advise would be to contact other Gib Sea owners (an association) to see if this has happened to their boat and what the fix might be.
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Old 29-01-2017, 11:57   #19
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Re: Keel problems! Your opinion .

Quote:
Originally Posted by konoplia View Post
Hi. After taking boat out of the water I found these damages on a keel joint place. Problem was that water from a bilge went through the bolts (stainless) to the keel where it destroyed fiberglass . Painting at this place was loosened and after removing it I discovered big holes full of water between keel and hull. As you can see on pictures, big holes around keel joint place, destroyed wet fiberglass coming out from these holes .
If you look only to these picture what would be your opinion about damages and fixing plan?
I understand that it is not easy to make an opinion based only on these pictures. But if you , please, can write some your thoughts about , I will be thankful.
Best of luck. From the pics I am afraid you are looking at one hell of a repair.
I hope the boat is worth the expenditure.
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Old 29-01-2017, 16:28   #20
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Re: Keel problems! Your opinion .

konoplia, that looks like a rusty steel shell keel. It will need to be sand blasted, at the very least, and the paint systems built up again. If the ballast is iron, and wet, the rust expands and will eventually break the shell.

Imo, too, a careful inspection of the interior is needed to rule out any broken stringers or floors in the vicinity of the keel to hull joint.

It is a big job. Do you have a shed to work in? Are there guys with portable sand blasting that could come to you? [then you could do the cleanup and disposal of the used sand, which is also pricey]

Good luck, it is probably doable to fix, but as others have said, run the numbers on the costs before you commit.

Ann
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Old 29-01-2017, 19:32   #21
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Re: Keel problems! Your opinion .

All above gave excellent recommendations and it seems to be a job you could do if you're at all inclined.

That said I will now add that I am probably, heck almost assuredly, the least qualified to judge the extent of the damage if it were my boat.

What I would do is drop the keel and get everything ready for inspection. I would call in a pro to evaluate the extent of the damage and get his/her recommendations on the required fixes. Having the boat ready for inspection ahead of time should help you minimize the pro's expense the best you possibly can.

Then evaluate the cost of materials and your estimated time (sweat equity) vs. value of the boat and decide at that point if you want to proceed.

If you do it yourself, good on ya! A great way to become intimate with your boat. But heed the advice given above and fix it right, something the PO apparently did not do.
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Old 29-01-2017, 20:22   #22
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Re: Keel problems! Your opinion .

Guys, to be clear, it's quite common to use a non-flexible bedding agent in between the ballast keel & keel sump. After which the joint then gets glassed over, so that there's little to no evidence of where the two meet. And attaching keels in such a manner is easily as common as it is to use a flexible bedding compound in between the two. Yes, on a lot of boats allowing for a bit of keel movement (flexing) is nice, & can lengthen the time needed between re-bedding, but it's by no means mandatory. And properly designed, & properly built, a bonded on keel can be quite maintenance free, aside from needing fresh antifouling every few years.
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Old 29-01-2017, 20:32   #23
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Re: Keel problems! Your opinion .

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
Guys, to be clear, it's quite common to use a non-flexible bedding agent in between the ballast keel & keel sump. After which the joint then gets glassed over, so that there's little to no evidence of where the two meet. And attaching keels in such a manner is easily as common as it is to use a flexible bedding compound in between the two. Yes, on a lot of boats allowing for a bit of keel movement (flexing) is nice, & can lengthen the time needed between re-bedding, but it's by no means mandatory. And properly designed, & properly built, a bonded on keel can be quite maintenance free, aside from needing fresh antifouling every few years.
Spot on. In looking at the photos this evening on my desk top (better resolution) the external lamina in the area appears to be 2 uni-directionals or a bi-axils (in +/- 45) over mat. If so, atypical for the builder, local & era. My bet is that there is some type of prior work in the area (repair or modification to fair the joint).

It is real easy to say "drop the keel" when it is someone else's boat. But, in my experience, unwise to do so unless absolutely needed. Kind of like a builder wanting to excavate a wet foundation without first attempting to correct grade problems.
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Old 30-01-2017, 05:40   #24
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Re: Keel problems! Your opinion .

" I discovered big holes full of water between keel and hull. As you can see on pictures, big holes around keel joint place, destroyed wet fiberglass coming out from these holes ." Konoplia



Before advising the OP to simply dry, fair and seal the repair, keep in mind the above statement and photos which necessitates a deeper, more thorough examination. As many have said, this does not have to be a costly repair if you are handy or have friends who can assist you who have some basic mechanical skills. The yard costs are simple: raise the boat to drop the keel;lower/reposition the boat after the repairs are effected. My yard would charge $280.00--two hours labor. The glasswork is fairly simple--even for an amateur. Also, you can inspect your keel bolts at this time. Don't be tempted to "Mickey Mouse" this repair. You'll only have to address it later with perhaps more damage from water intrusion. Good luck and safe sailing. P.S. As a North European, I'd hate to "deep six" my boat in those waters!
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Old 30-01-2017, 06:27   #25
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Re: Keel problems! Your opinion .

Quote:
Originally Posted by old frog View Post
Spot on. In looking at the photos this evening on my desk top (better resolution) the external lamina in the area appears to be 2 uni-directionals or a bi-axils (in +/- 45) over mat. If so, atypical for the builder, local & era. My bet is that there is some type of prior work in the area (repair or modification to fair the joint).


This.
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Old 30-01-2017, 06:37   #26
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Re: Keel problems! Your opinion .

Just a story came to a friend:
At the exit of water, when the boat (24feet) stowed, a shipyard crew said "it is normal that your keel moves a bit?". By probing the bottom inside with a chisel, a stratified area around a bolt was rotten, and more, and more, and also stiffeners ...
what to do? cut and put in the dump?
She decided (with my help and other friends), after removing the keel, to cut and rebuild the bottom of the hull.
Sure the boat is now stronger than originally !
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Old 30-01-2017, 09:11   #27
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Re: Keel problems! Your opinion .

Quote:
Originally Posted by konoplia View Post
Hi. After taking boat out of the water I found these damages on a keel joint place. Problem was that water from a bilge went through the bolts (stainless) to the keel where it destroyed fiberglass . Painting at this place was loosened and after removing it I discovered big holes full of water between keel and hull. As you can see on pictures, big holes around keel joint place, destroyed wet fiberglass coming out from these holes .
If you look only to these picture what would be your opinion about damages and fixing plan?
I understand that it is not easy to make an opinion based only on these pictures. But if you , please, can write some your thoughts about , I will be thankful.
I went back and looked again. It is difficult to tell much from the pics. Is it possible water was laying in the bilge and froze and the damage was due to expansion?
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Old 30-01-2017, 09:22   #28
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Re: Keel problems! Your opinion .

Thank you for your replies dear sailors. The boat is an old Albin Express 27 ft, which has a long history from many regattas and now belongs to students sailing club. Boat is not in good shape due to many inexperienced sailors have used it during the past several years. Now we , aka club board members , must to decide what to do with it. And me, Konoplia , just trying to figure out what damages can be and fixing solutions if price of repair will be not higher than boat value. But it looks like taking ballast down would be a priority and then only decision should be done.
After lifting boat on a land I found out that bilge was full of water , drain hoses were not working , ballast bolts are not painted and I just assume that water could go through to the keel joint place . But it is only an opinion without any checking. Now I will follow your suggestions and will check this possibility of bilge leakage.
Anyway it looks like it will be a big project but we must wait for better weather conditions.
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