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Old 21-04-2016, 08:48   #1
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Keel Meets Shelf

I scraped up the keel of my Peterson 33 last summer. Getting close to launch and need to fix it myself, or hire a contractor.The bottom 2 inches needs to be smoothed out and re-glassed. I have no experience working with fiberglass but the grinding part seems pretty straight forward. Any suggestions would be appreciated. I am very capable with tools and most repairs so I'm not afraid to tackle this if it seems reasonable.
Thanks,
Mike
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Old 21-04-2016, 09:12   #2
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Re: Keel Meets Shelf

This is when you buy someone a case of beer and ask for advice, seriously
If it's what I think it is, it's an excellent first glass job, doesn't have to be perfect and is non structual
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Old 21-04-2016, 09:26   #3
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Re: Keel Meets Shelf

My suggestion would be a couple of practice sessions to get acquainted with fiberglass work, before working on the keel.
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Old 27-04-2016, 19:27   #4
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Re: Keel Meets Shelf

It's not hard working with glass. I shape surfboards in what little spare time I have. Best advice is do multiple layers of thin sheets of glass vs one or two thick layers. I've seen people glass jobs that look horrendous and fail because it was too thick and didn't bond right with the resin. Make sure to give a larger diameter than the damaged section and since it's not going to be visible to the eye it's great practice. Just be sure to use a rubber scraper and gently, yet firmly get all the air out of the glass but you don't want to press all the resin out. Trial and error really but you'll do fine.
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Old 27-04-2016, 19:45   #5
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Re: Keel Meets Shelf

Mike, WEST systems make a very good How To guide. I suspect it's online somewhere.
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Old 27-04-2016, 20:58   #6
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Re: Keel Meets Shelf

There are inexpensive fiberglass and resin rollers, and will do a great job of getting the air out, while allowing the fiberglass to stay stuck on.

To the OP: you might post a few pictures of the extend of the damage. If the gouges are only shallow, you might just be able to fair it with epoxy and microbaloons, sand, prime and paint. Or it may require a proper repair, and A64 pilot has the right of it: a slab and a chat with a local professional will tell you what you need to know.

Ann
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Old 28-04-2016, 02:51   #7
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Re: Keel Meets Shelf

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
There are inexpensive fiberglass and resin rollers, and will do a great job of getting the air out, while allowing the fiberglass to stay stuck on.

To the OP: you might post a few pictures of the extend of the damage. If the gouges are only shallow, you might just be able to fair it with epoxy and microbaloons, sand, prime and paint. Or it may require a proper repair, and A64 pilot has the right of it: a slab and a chat with a local professional will tell you what you need to know.

Ann
in my experience just sitting under the boat in a boatyard and looking at the keel will solicit any number of passers by to stop and offer advice.........even those that know sweet FA about boats......no slab needed
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Old 30-04-2016, 10:28   #8
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Re: Keel Meets Shelf

With any grounding, the obvious damage may be on the bottom of the keel but the more serious damage goes un noticed at the top. Have you looked at the top? Is there any spider cracking on the hull at the base of the keel, both leading edge and trailing edge? Assuming it is a fin keel of some sort, ( bolted or encapsulated ) these points should be checked. Any stress cracking will indicate that that the energy of the grounding which would have been transmitted to the base of the keel, may have corrupted the hull keel joint.

Not saying it did but I would certainly check.
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Old 30-04-2016, 15:26   #9
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Re: Keel Meets Shelf

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete O Static View Post
With any grounding, the obvious damage may be on the bottom of the keel but the more serious damage goes un noticed at the top. Have you looked at the top? Is there any spider cracking on the hull at the base of the keel, both leading edge and trailing edge? Assuming it is a fin keel of some sort, ( bolted or encapsulated ) these points should be checked. Any stress cracking will indicate that that the energy of the grounding which would have been transmitted to the base of the keel, may have corrupted the hull keel joint.

Not saying it did but I would certainly check.
To the OP:

Take a look at the thread "Hull Repair....." started by Hooked. Very different type of boat, be glad you're not liner built, but beautiful repair work by CF's minaret and Hooked.

Ann
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Old 30-04-2016, 15:32   #10
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Re: Keel Meets Shelf

Your Peterson 33 is a bolt on keel right? Bondo will work. Better :epoxy and filler of some sort. Are you sure there is glass on it? If the entire bolt on keel is glassed over then I suppose you should glass it to seal it up well. It's not likely structural though.
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Old 30-04-2016, 16:11   #11
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Re: Keel Meets Shelf

Go visit the folks at Hamilton Marine in Portland.
They are a good resource & will be able to walk you thru the steps that will allow you to make the repair yourself.
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Old 30-04-2016, 17:14   #12
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Re: Keel Meets Shelf

Quote:
Originally Posted by atoll View Post
in my experience just sitting under the boat in a boatyard and looking at the keel will solicit any number of passers by to stop and offer advice.........even those that know sweet FA about boats......no slab needed
+1 from me. They come outta nowhere just as you're about to fire up the grinder... 😀
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Old 30-04-2016, 18:38   #13
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Re: Keel Meets Shelf

Been a few decades since I saw the bottom of a Peterson 33, but as i recall, it was a bolt-on lead keel... no glass involved. If so, then simply bogging up and refairing the gouges in the lead is all that is required. Epoxy based bog is much better here than bondo types, and the quantities involved are small, so don't cheap out! Then primer and antifouling as usual.

If either my memory is wrong (how could that be?) or some PO has glassed over the lead, a more involved repair is indicated, and I'll leave that to the experts. I'd think that repairing a glass over lead interface might be a bit more involved than a simple glass patch job.

Jim
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Old 30-04-2016, 18:40   #14
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Re: Keel Meets Shelf

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
There are inexpensive fiberglass and resin rollers, and will do a great job of getting the air out, while allowing the fiberglass to stay stuck on.



Ann
This is wrong.

Rollers are for glass with mat backing, which isn't what you use with epoxy. Mat backed fiberglass cloth is intended for use with polyester resin, where you use rollers. With epoxy (the only way to do this repair), you want to buy fiberglass cloth that's mat free. Mat is a bulking layer used with polyester.

Diving otter had the right advice.

Grind back a nice, smooth dishpan from the damage area. You want it to be as slow a transition from the depths of the damage to the undamaged rest of the keel.

The smoother and bigger this transition the better.

Use nice, thin glass 8oz, 12oz or so. Biaxial or just regular cloth (no mat).

Cut small pieces to fit the dishpan you created by grinding, then progressively larger pieces. cut tons of these ahead of time

Stary laying the small ones in the center of the dishpan first.

Wet out the hole with a chip brush (or roller if huge area).

Take the smallest cut glass you have and put it in the center of the hole.

Use the plastic squeegee you bought and squeegee out the air bubbles.

Wet out the glass you just layed.

Stick another layer (next larger size you cut out) on the previous layer.

Repeat for a long time until the dishpan center is at the same height as the undamaged rest of the keel area. Note: There may be a lot of glass sticking up too proud around the edges of the dishpan. Don't worry about this. Make sure the center is filled in to be even with the rest. No crater.

After it kicks (a day or 2 later), grind off the extra proud glass to fair the repair into the good.

Done. Prep and paint as normal, filling in any low spots, as desired, with a mix of colloidal silica and microballoons with epoxy as an intermediate step before paint.

Use the squeegee with epoxy/biax/cloth. Rollers are for mat/polyester.

Ah, if bolt on lead... easy. Thickened epoxy then buzz it to shape later.

Epoxy/silica.
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Old 30-04-2016, 21:38   #15
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Re: Keel Meets Shelf

Guys,
To be able to offer up good, accurate advice for this repair, it'd pay to know what the problem is, first. Including; pics, bolt on or encapsulated. If the latter, whether the fiberglass shell was punctured. If the former, is bonding to the lead required. And of course, an accurate assessment of the damage as mentioned here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete O Static View Post
With any grounding, the obvious damage may be on the bottom of the keel but the more serious damage goes un noticed at the top. Have you looked at the top? Is there any spider cracking on the hull at the base of the keel, both leading edge and trailing edge? Assuming it is a fin keel of some sort, ( bolted or encapsulated ) these points should be checked. Any stress cracking will indicate that that the energy of the grounding which would have been transmitted to the base of the keel, may have corrupted the hull keel joint.

Not saying it did but I would certainly check.
All of which is important, as each type of keel, & various levels of damage, require a different approach to repair.
For example, if there's bare lead exposed, & it needs to be bonded to, that's a trickier repair than straight glass on glass. Or if the shell's been punctured on an encapsulated keel, then it's going to need some drying out first. In addition, of course to further damage assessment.

Ann's suggestion to visit this thread is a good one Keel sump repair In order for the OP to get some eyeball experience with laminating on a repair.

Also, it'd be good to go to the source, for epoxy use, builds, & repairs. The WEST System site www.westsystem.com
Where all of their; user guides, project guides, & excellent book, The Gougeon Brothers, On Boat Construction all are available for free download. And are great technical references for any/every boat owner to have on hand.
Plus, there's the sister site, which is a Periodical put out by WEST System, showcasing projects which people have done using their products www.Epoxyworks.com

And as well, most of the other major epoxy manufacturers & sellers have free tech. references/user guides. Plus online videos, showing how different repairs, & methods of construction are done.

But again, the key first steps involve finding out exactly what kind of keel it is, & also doing a full & accurate damage assessment. Which may include hiring a Surveyor. Or at a minimum, doing a good bit of reading up on said subject (albeit, my vote's for the former).

Plus which, starting one's composites education, working on something structural that's upside down, makes the learning curve a fair bit steeper. Especially when one's already starting at the bottom (of the learning curve). And, if bonding to metals is involved...
It's far from an impossible task, though if the repairs are more than cosmetic, then even an experienced hand would likely call in someone else for a 2nd opinion.

PS: And to everyone (me included), there's now a New; updated & expanded version of The Gougeon Brothers, On Boat Construction available via their website http://epoxyworks.com/index.php/the-...n-5th-edition/
Direct link --> http://www.westsystem.com/ss/assets/...k%20061205.pdf
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