Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 27-01-2016, 01:08   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: East Med
Posts: 60
Unhappy Keel Bolt / Stud Leaking

I have a 2007 Bavaria 39 Cruiser.
I'm looking for some guidance for stopping an intermittent leak from the aft keel bolt / Stud. (confirmed, definitely not leaking from anywhere else).
Has anyone had experience with this? Can I just re-torque the bolts or is removing / installing the keel the way to go?
I would assume removing the keel, to check everything is OK would be the best option, but if someone knows better, I would consider that!

Depending on the best solution, would anyone have or be able to explain the procedure / equipment needed please? i.e. keel trolley, compound used between mating faces, torque settings etc, etc.
I am capable of doing the job and looking forward to rectifying ASAP. The job would be carried out using a boat lift.
If no one has the procedure for Bavaria, maybe they know of a different type of vessel, that the procedure is similar?

Many thanks in advance for your help with this matter.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Bolt.jpg
Views:	465
Size:	238.6 KB
ID:	117729  
__________________

__________________
Harry Brown is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-01-2016, 02:17   #2
Registered User
 
neilpride's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: in the world
Boat: csy 44 tall rig.
Posts: 3,099
Re: Keel Bolt / Stud Leaking

There is no shortcuts , so your only option come from drop the keel, inspect and check the whole set of keelbolts, clean and remove the old caulking, clean both faces , top of the keel and hull , the best stuff used this days to seal the joint is 5200 from 3M ,, and ask Bavaria for the keel bolts torque when you are ready to tight the keelbolts ,,, others i presume can say that with just a retorque in the aft keel bolt is ok,,,, if you got a leak in the aft keel bolt the joint is compromised...
__________________

__________________
neilpride is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-01-2016, 04:45   #3
Moderator
 
HappyMdRSailor's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: North Mississippi
Boat: 48 Wauquiez Pilot Saloon-C22 Chrysler Sunpiper- 19 Potter-Preparing to cruise w/my girl
Posts: 5,980
Re: Keel Bolt / Stud Leaking

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
There is no shortcuts , so your only option come from drop the keel, inspect and check the whole set of keelbolts, clean and remove the old caulking, clean both faces , top of the keel and hull , the best stuff used this days to seal the joint is 5200 from 3M ,, and ask Bavaria for the keel bolts torque when you are ready to tight the keelbolts ,,, others i presume can say that with just a retorque in the aft keel bolt is ok,,,, if you got a leak in the aft keel bolt the joint is compromised...
Hi Harry,

Neil and I are in the same side of the table here... Once you have moisture inside the joint, the only way to know what your keelbolts look like is dropping the keel... It's not too hard a job really... IF... you can get access to the studs fairly easily...

You can make a keel stand/support fixture out of timber if you need to... Just a bit more work than the only easy thing that ever went my way of having a flat shoal keel to simply block... One stud should be longer than the rest allowing you to lift high enough without having a alignment chore.... I prefer 4000/4200 over 5200, but it's more of personal preference... I also prefer making a bed of thickened epoxy to match the keel stub... But again personal preference... If you can't get torque specs from Bavaria, reasonable approximation can be made from stud size...

Sounds like you are confident... We'll walk ya through it !
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Keel Off .jpg
Views:	531
Size:	93.0 KB
ID:	117734   Click image for larger version

Name:	Studs 2 .jpg
Views:	314
Size:	74.1 KB
ID:	117735  

__________________
In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair...

Mai Tai's fix everything...
HappyMdRSailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-01-2016, 15:20   #4
Registered User
 
CS Cruiser's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: PCYC Toronto
Boat: CS36T
Posts: 310
Images: 10
Re: Keel Bolt / Stud Leaking

Good luck and let us know how you make out.
__________________
Paul
s/v TENACITY - CS36T
CS Cruiser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-01-2016, 02:41   #5
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: East Med
Posts: 60
Re: Keel Bolt / Stud Leaking

Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyMdRSailor View Post
Hi Harry,

Neil and I are in the same side of the table here... Once you have moisture inside the joint, the only way to know what your keelbolts look like is dropping the keel... It's not too hard a job really... IF... you can get access to the studs fairly easily...

You can make a keel stand/support fixture out of timber if you need to... Just a bit more work than the only easy thing that ever went my way of having a flat shoal keel to simply block... One stud should be longer than the rest allowing you to lift high enough without having a alignment chore.... I prefer 4000/4200 over 5200, but it's more of personal preference... I also prefer making a bed of thickened epoxy to match the keel stub... But again personal preference... If you can't get torque specs from Bavaria, reasonable approximation can be made from stud size...

Sounds like you are confident... We'll walk ya through it !
Thanks for the replies and confidence boost so far! :-)

I agree, Keel has to come off, just to be sure, I've decided that's what I'm going to do.
Could you please expand on "making a bed of thickened epoxy to match the keel stub".
I'm not sure exactly what's involved here and how it's done?

Also, when using the 4000/4200, how much is used? I've heard less is more!
Is it just a bead of sealant around the studs, and a bead around the edge of the keel, or a complete covering?
I think I have iron keel, not lead (TBC). I assume its treated / painted after the face has been cleaned up?
__________________
Harry Brown is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-01-2016, 02:50   #6
Registered User
 
neilpride's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: in the world
Boat: csy 44 tall rig.
Posts: 3,099
Re: Keel Bolt / Stud Leaking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Brown View Post
Thanks for the replies and confidence boost so far! :-)

I agree, Keel has to come off, just to be sure, I've decided that's what I'm going to do.
Could you please expand on "making a bed of thickened epoxy to match the keel stub".
I'm not sure exactly what's involved here and how it's done?

Also, when using the 4000/4200, how much is used? I've heard less is more!
Is it just a bead of sealant around the studs, and a bead around the edge of the keel, or a complete covering?
I think I have iron keel, not lead (TBC). I assume its treated / painted after the face has been cleaned up?

The epoxy used is to macht both faces since many keels dont macht even the hull side , aft trailing edge in many cases..and with the epoxy bead you get a perfect fit between keel and hull..

Dont try to save in 4200 or 5200, buy plenty, aply deliberately lots of this stuff in the top of the keel surface, studs, edges, and in the whole thing,, if the top is rusted , dont use any paint, clean the rust to bare metal, the point is to help the compound to stick well to the surface...
__________________
neilpride is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-01-2016, 04:46   #7
Senior Cruiser
 
Kenomac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Somewhere in the Adriatic Sea
Boat: Oyster 53 Cutter
Posts: 8,511
Re: Keel Bolt / Stud Leaking

I wouldn't use 5200 on the joint. I believe the stud to keel joint needs to remain somewhat flexible in order to prevent what is now happening. What you actually want to do us creat a watertight gasket around the bolts with the bolts themselves doing the heavy lifting in joining the two surfaces. Plus.. If you ever need to drop the keel again... good luck grinding out the 5200.

Contact minaret on this forum and find out what he recommends.
__________________
Kenomac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-01-2016, 05:43   #8
Registered User
 
captjcook's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Fort Lauderdale Florida
Boat: Northstar 1500, 35'
Posts: 318
Re: Keel Bolt / Stud Leaking

If you fill with thickened epoxy (matching/perfectly mated surfaces better) use copious amounts (many coats) or mold release on keel. I think a license should be required for anyone using 5200 and highly recommend against most uses of it, I totally agree with Kenomac, about future disassembly. If there is a proper surface to surface mating of this joint, there should not be any flexibility. Then again...the sky might be falling...over a bit of weeping...
__________________
captjcook is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-01-2016, 09:36   #9
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: East Med
Posts: 60
Re: Keel Bolt / Stud Leaking

Just got this back from Bavaria (in their wording):

You have to solve the keel bolts and then you can remove the keel. It could be difficult therefore the keel sticks on the hull, gelcoat and Laminate will be damaged during there process.
• Keel and hull must be cleaned with Aceton and you have to use a primer.
• The type of sealant is called "Plexus". Information you find under SELVIDA.de - Webshop für GFK & Gelcoat-Reparaturen.
• I have no Information about the size of the nuts and the torque is 360.
"

I'm a little bit disappointed with their response really.
I've ask them to clarify if they mean foot pounds, or newton meters (the latter I expect). But what does worry me is the bit about "the keel sticks to the hull and there will be damage upon removal"
It looks like these are stuck on, with probably the Plexus stuff they are referring too.
How am I going to remove the keel with minimal damage if it is stuck on? Hopefully it just comes straight off, I doubt it though!!

Hmm........
__________________
Harry Brown is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-01-2016, 09:57   #10
Registered User
 
neilpride's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: in the world
Boat: csy 44 tall rig.
Posts: 3,099
Re: Keel Bolt / Stud Leaking

With Plexus????? WTF!!!!!!!
Regarding disconnect the keel with minimum damage, don't use any kind of metal wedge, instead use wood wedges, when you get a minimum gap in the joint use a electric saw tool and bang the wedges ....
__________________
neilpride is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-01-2016, 11:13   #11
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: East Hampton, NY
Boat: Dufour 34 Performance
Posts: 7
Re: Keel Bolt / Stud Leaking

Harry
Thought I'd chime in as I see you heading inexorably to a conclusion to remove your keel. I have NO experience, I am a complete novice, and I do not disagree with any advice you have received on this form. As neilpride and HappyMdRSailor correctly state, the only way to know what your keelbolts look like is to drop the keel. But just picking up on what captjcook implied, this maybe a bit of throwing out the baby with bathwater. You have a relatively young boat, and by the picture, the boat looked to me, an amateur, to be in relatively good shape. While its true you never know what the bolts look like at the seam unless you drop the keel, given its just one bolt and only intermittent weeping, I would be curious to find out from those with more experience if it would a practical course to first try tightening all the bolts to the correct tension, epoxy the seal if any cracks are noticed and observe if leaking continues? While no one likes the idea of a possible leak, and I totally understand your desire to to rectify ASAP, in this case you may be better served with a more slower, deliberate course of action. I think it would also be a good idea in any case to seek two professional opinions on site from persons who can visually inspect your boat and make professional recommendations before I committed to the project. The only reason I am replying, is sometimes a person can research on line - like searching WebMD with a symptom - and convince yourself you have the worst case scenario. In any case, I hope all goes well and wish you the best luck with whatever course you choose, in the end its your safety, peace of mind and money.
__________________
B-to is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-01-2016, 11:25   #12
Resin Head
 
minaret's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Seattle WA
Boat: Nauticat
Posts: 7,199
Images: 52
Re: Keel Bolt / Stud Leaking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Brown View Post
Just got this back from Bavaria (in their wording):

You have to solve the keel bolts and then you can remove the keel. It could be difficult therefore the keel sticks on the hull, gelcoat and Laminate will be damaged during there process.
• Keel and hull must be cleaned with Aceton and you have to use a primer.
• The type of sealant is called "Plexus". Information you find under SELVIDA.de - Webshop für GFK & Gelcoat-Reparaturen.
• I have no Information about the size of the nuts and the torque is 360.
"

I'm a little bit disappointed with their response really.
I've ask them to clarify if they mean foot pounds, or newton meters (the latter I expect). But what does worry me is the bit about "the keel sticks to the hull and there will be damage upon removal"
It looks like these are stuck on, with probably the Plexus stuff they are referring too.
How am I going to remove the keel with minimal damage if it is stuck on? Hopefully it just comes straight off, I doubt it though!!

Hmm........


Be cautious! Having dealt with them much, it sounds to me like they are saying this keel was factory bonded on with Plexus, in which case much is explained. Unfortunately, this also means the keel will be extremely difficult to remove. I would clarify this point with them before attempting to pull it.
__________________
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,

Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
minaret is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-01-2016, 11:51   #13
Senior Cruiser
 
Kenomac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Somewhere in the Adriatic Sea
Boat: Oyster 53 Cutter
Posts: 8,511
Re: Keel Bolt / Stud Leaking

Good luck...

From the Plexus website:

"ITW Plexus "Fiberglass Fusion" Adhesives bond thermoplastics, composites, gelcoats, SMCs, wood, metal, and dissimilar substrates. Unlike glassed-in joints or marine putties, they chemically cross-link composites at the molecular level into a unitized assembly. They create bonds so strong that the composites will delaminate before the bonds fail.

ITW Plexus Adhesives cure at room temperature, producing tough, flexible bonds that withstand impact and dampen vibration. They also resist solvents, UV exposure, saltwater, weathering, and temperature extremes/cycling. In addition, they reduce weight and improve performance without sacrificing strength or durability.

ITW Plexus Adhesives require little or no surface preparation (primers, sanding, or grinding). Mixed as dispensed, they are available in a wide range of open times and can be applied to vertical or inverted surfaces without sagging or "swimming". They produce 90% lower VOC emissions than resins or putties and are Greenguard certified.

ITW Plexus adhesives are supplied in ready-to-dispense cartridges, 5 gallon pails and 50 gallons drums. They may be applied using industry standard manual or pneumatic applicators or via a variety of meter mix bulk dispensing systems."
__________________
Kenomac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-01-2016, 12:13   #14
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: East Med
Posts: 60
Re: Keel Bolt / Stud Leaking

I know! This is the bit I'm STUCK on at the moment, literally! ;-) hehe

How the hell am I going to get it off!

It must be able to come off and I'm assuming someone, somewhere has done this, or something similar before.

I just need that person to read this to advise!!
__________________
Harry Brown is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-01-2016, 12:18   #15
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: East Med
Posts: 60
Re: Keel Bolt / Stud Leaking

Quote:
Originally Posted by B-to View Post
Harry
Thought I'd chime in as I see you heading inexorably to a conclusion to remove your keel. I have NO experience, I am a complete novice, and I do not disagree with any advice you have received on this form. As neilpride and HappyMdRSailor correctly state, the only way to know what your keelbolts look like is to drop the keel. But just picking up on what captjcook implied, this maybe a bit of throwing out the baby with bathwater. You have a relatively young boat, and by the picture, the boat looked to me, an amateur, to be in relatively good shape. While its true you never know what the bolts look like at the seam unless you drop the keel, given its just one bolt and only intermittent weeping, I would be curious to find out from those with more experience if it would a practical course to first try tightening all the bolts to the correct tension, epoxy the seal if any cracks are noticed and observe if leaking continues? While no one likes the idea of a possible leak, and I totally understand your desire to to rectify ASAP, in this case you may be better served with a more slower, deliberate course of action. I think it would also be a good idea in any case to seek two professional opinions on site from persons who can visually inspect your boat and make professional recommendations before I committed to the project. The only reason I am replying, is sometimes a person can research on line - like searching WebMD with a symptom - and convince yourself you have the worst case scenario. In any case, I hope all goes well and wish you the best luck with whatever course you choose, in the end its your safety, peace of mind and money.
Believe me. I would love to just torque it and hopefully stop the leak, and it have no adverse affect on the joint, but most people so far seem to think that keel off is the correct way to go.
Someone present a case otherwise and a torquing I will go!!
Thanks for taking the time to respond. (everyone else too, much appreciated).
__________________

__________________
Harry Brown is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
keel

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Suitable metal for replacement keel bolt in cast iron keel? OrangeCrush Monohull Sailboats 43 20-04-2016 20:25
Keel J bolt replacement in lead keel funjohnson Construction, Maintenance & Refit 24 15-01-2015 05:11
Cable Lug Stud Size Rating US1Fountain Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 9 16-02-2011 14:45
Keel Leek Fix / Keel Bolt Questions brianontheroad Construction, Maintenance & Refit 11 16-06-2010 19:39



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:16.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.