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Old 05-01-2013, 06:09   #91
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Re: Jacklines

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Originally Posted by Snore View Post
Since you asked for a resume

Learned to sail 42 years ago when I was 16, have owned boats of various sizes prior to my T-33.

From the ago of 40 to about 55 kayaked extensively. I was a pretty good long distance, and open ocean kayaker- probably have over 15,000 miles of paddling mostly in wilderness or open ocean- usually about a mile off shore. Also about 4-5,000 miles of expedition racing, including a 1,500 mile race. As these races are non-stop multi-day events, to be competitive you are in the boat well over 18 hours a day sometimes just going almost 38 hours non-stop. My longest period in a boat was a tad over 48 hours non-stop. I wore a PFD for almost everyone of those miles and learned how to manage risk so as to be competitive and not get hurt.

There are old kayaker and bold kayakers, there are no old, bold kayakers!

I am currently 58, 6'3" 230 lbs, a tad over my kayaking weight, but still in decent shape for an older guy.

My day job is in the utilities industry, one of my major accomplishments in my current position is reducing the injury rate. How? Training and requiring appropriate personal protective equipment!!!

No one plans on falling off the boat. Many accidents are caused by lack of attention, lack of training or not using the right PPE. Unless one is infallible (Pope?) or can walk on water, one needs to accept the fact that eventually you will F-up. The jackline and tether ensure that when I make that mistake, none of you guys are hitting on my widow for the insurance money and that new Swan.

Having removed your presumptions from the discussion, I hope the logic behind my choices are clearer.

Like I said, there are opinions being expressed here based on personal choices.

Bill
Awesome resume Bill!

I wish I would have talked to you before I bought my last Kayak (it's a 16' Folbot Cooper and I use it as my dinghy) It's really not bad I guess but I have seen some nice "hardshell?" kayaks I like better but of course I can't store them in my V berth.

I'm sorry you are an old guy now. I am a self taught boater starting when I was 16 also which was about 41 years ago on a Chincoteague Scow with a 40 Johnson here on the bay. Raced catamarans for 15 years along the Gulf Coast. (2) Hobie 16s, a NACRA 6.0, and a NACRA F-17 with spin. All awesome fast boats. (we raced 9-10 months out of the year back then) I did the Ft Walton Beach 100 Mile "Round the Island" race 4X. It's an awesome race to do and if the wind is right you can do it in 12 hours or less. You wear PFD's on a small racing catamaran but no jacklines. You have to wear a harness because you are "trapped" out over the water to give the boat stability since it's weight is about 300-350lbs with as much sail area as many 6,000lb monohulls.

Did lots of cycling there too with the bike racers and triathletes but I'm sore today from doing weights on Thursday. I ran 3.5 miles New Years Day. Oh, and I'm 6', 196lbs, and I'm only 57!

Remember sometimes I/we argue to see if our thinking is correct and to get ideas from other folks here. And sometime we run into some folks with thin skin. I'm a non-union boss of a union work force so sometimes I bring my work to the ole forum..............which means I may not be as Politically Correct as I should.

Anyway, I was thinking this am I might use my harness only and tie onto my cabin grab rail while I'm setting up for wing and wing on the downwind leg today but if the other boat is close I probably won't worry about it. But it's only suppose to be 43 degrees today.
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Old 05-01-2013, 11:53   #92
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Re: Jacklines

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Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
And don't forget to stray harnessed at anchor...........

Sometimes you just gotta depend on yourself to be able to stay onboard the boat.
once you actually leave the desk to go truly sailing, you will appreciate the reality of death once ob from your own deck. try to regain your footing on your boat while you are being dragged thru ocean at 4-7 kts, and breathing water. this is precisely why jacklines were designed to keep one on the boat, not over the side.

if you are in dire need of remaining tethered on the boat while at anchor,, mebbe the proper boat to sail would be the rubber ducky in your bath tub.

is very very easy to make remarks when at a desk, but it is the reality of actual cruising that shows you why and how items were made and their original intent.
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Old 05-01-2013, 12:03   #93
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Re: Jacklines

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Quite a few years ago, can't remember where, I read the story of a woman who came up from down below while crossing the Pacific and her husband was not there in the cockpit. It was pretty calm out, and she didn't panic, looked at the compass, thought about what she would do, turned the boat around on a reciprocal course and sailed for a couple of hours until she picked up her husband, still treading water and wondering if these were his last few hours on earth. He had just tripped on something on a calm night and fell overboard, and watched the boat sail away under self steering gear without him. Very lucky.
And had he been tethered, he would have been screaming at the wifey and she would have pulled him aboard a lot sooner than two hours. Good thing he was strong enough to tread water for two hours, most people in that situation would have been dead ... without a PFD,

That's story is a great illustration of the value of a PFD with integrated harness and being clipped in, especially when alone on deck and offshore.
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Old 05-01-2013, 12:11   #94
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Re: Jacklines

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And had he been tethered, he would have been screaming at the wifey and she would have pulled him aboard a lot sooner than two hours. Good thing he was strong enough to tread water for two hours, most people in that situation would have been dead ... without a PFD,

That's story is a great illustration of the value of a PFD with integrated harness and being clipped in, especially when alone on deck and offshore.

had he been PROPERLY tethered, he would not have fallen over side in first place. is why tethers were initiated--to prevent falling overboard, not to be drug, dead, back on board.
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Old 05-01-2013, 12:17   #95
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Re: Jacklines

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Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
once you actually leave the desk to go truly sailing, you will appreciate the reality of death once ob from your own deck. try to regain your footing on your boat while you are being dragged thru ocean at 4-7 kts, and breathing water. this is precisely why jacklines were designed to keep one on the boat, not over the side.

if you are in dire need of remaining tethered on the boat while at anchor,, mebbe the proper boat to sail would be the rubber ducky in your bath tub.

is very very easy to make remarks when at a desk, but it is the reality of actual cruising that shows you why and how items were made and their original intent.
Looks like you need to reread what I wrote..............you were in too much of a hurry to get in your rubber ducky and desk line I think. Just relax next time. You can do it......
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Old 05-01-2013, 12:20   #96
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Re: Jacklines

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I'm sorry you are an old guy now.
Watch it! I said OLDER .... You know you are getting older, when the young guys keep offering you a hand getting out of the ditch

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I'm a non-union boss of a union work force so sometimes I bring my work to the ole forum..............which means I may not be as Politically Correct as I should.
No worries it's all good. Glad to see there are no "Low T" issues around here!!!!

Bill
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Old 05-01-2013, 12:20   #97
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Re: Jacklines

By the way, in addition to jacklines, I know of people who rig additional handhold lines while offshore. For example, a high rope tied off to the mast stays might be an excellent handhold at times, as would a line from the cockpit up to the mast. Give yourself an additional something to hold onto. It probably looks silly, but I have sometimes practiced in harbor on a new boat exactly how I would go forward in bad conditions. it is worthwhile to try all this stuff out before you need it, which can point up likely hang up spots or areas that maybe need an additional hand hold. Try it out crawling on all fours, in addition to standing up.
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Old 05-01-2013, 14:10   #98
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Re: Jacklines

Yep. I am with la Zeehag on this: the original device is to keep one onboard and inboard, not hanging overboard. If your jacklines/harness allow this, maybe it is a time to reconsider.

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Old 05-01-2013, 14:44   #99
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Re: Jacklines

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mebbe the proper boat to sail would be the rubber ducky in your bath tub
watch it, I've never said anything bad about your boat

Don Lucas
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Old 05-01-2013, 15:22   #100
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Re: Jacklines

Here's my own personal data point. I've been sailing inshore and offshore since 1974, and a lot on inland lakes and the Great Lakes before that. Nobody from onboard my boat has ever fallen in while underway, and I have never talked to anyone who detailed such an incident on their boat. I have fallen in twice that I can recall. Once when I was chopping ice from around my boat in a marina in the middle of the winter--slipped on the ice and fell in. Once when I fell out of a dinghy trying to launch through surf off the beach. My wife one time was on another boat ahead of me pulling into a wharf and she tried to jump to the land too soon and went in. Those are the only instances I can think of that I have personal knowledge of.

There are lots of folks on here with more sailing experience than me. Anybody else ever fallen in while underway?
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Old 05-01-2013, 17:26   #101
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had he been PROPERLY tethered, he would not have fallen over side in first place. is why tethers were initiated--to prevent falling overboard, not to be drug, dead, back on board.
Well there's that too.
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Old 05-01-2013, 17:29   #102
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Here's my own personal data point. I've been sailing inshore and offshore since 1974, and a lot on inland lakes and the Great Lakes before that. Nobody from onboard my boat has ever fallen in while underway, and I have never talked to anyone who detailed such an incident on their boat. I have fallen in twice that I can recall. Once when I was chopping ice from around my boat in a marina in the middle of the winter--slipped on the ice and fell in. Once when I fell out of a dinghy trying to launch through surf off the beach. My wife one time was on another boat ahead of me pulling into a wharf and she tried to jump to the land too soon and went in. Those are the only instances I can think of that I have personal knowledge of.

There are lots of folks on here with more sailing experience than me. Anybody else ever fallen in while underway?
No but as I mentioned before I was witness to someone who didn't fall in due to a properly rigged jackline.
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Old 05-01-2013, 17:51   #103
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Okay let me try I will tether myself with just enough to dangle into the water and then fall over mid ship. This way we will have a real example.
Lets say the dinghy lashings have worked loose. I need more then the 3 foot tether will reach so I switch to the long 6' leed.I stumble at the house side edge and over I go. If you dont hear back from me you can guess what happened............here goes
So no thanks to anyone here boatdudette 261 came down the dock and wished to know why I was buffing my top sides at 2 in the morning. I explained this is a test for greater good? I am proving we should not fall overboard. Prior to dudette261's arrival I had failed at chewing the damn harness. I wished to swim free grab my passing transom and climb aboard. But no luck. I struggled and hung for hours. I would have been dead had it not been for dudette. Who with great agility and may I say man strength plucked me from near demise.
Prior I was in great shape now I gimp about bow legged and fearful of big hairy cats.
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Old 05-01-2013, 18:24   #104
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Yep. I am with la Zeehag on this: the original device is to keep one onboard and inboard, not hanging overboard. If your jacklines/harness allow this, maybe it is a time to reconsider.

b.
Far too many Jackstays are useless as they allow the user to still fall over the lifelines. I have gone over and its a very scary thing being dragged along side. Now I only sail with a Wichard harness that has a snap shackle. Secondly you must have a boarding ladder. Rope ladders etc are very very difficult to use as you tend to push them up under the boat rendering them useless.

Nobody except exceptionally strong fit people can hold onto a knotted rope at 5 knots for anything other then a minute or so.

I participate in several mob trials including one in a F6. It's was a real eye opener.

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Old 05-01-2013, 18:36   #105
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Re: Jacklines

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The Idea is NOT to go overboard !! Keep your tethers SHORT no matter how many times ya need to change off to maintain the shortness ya need to stay aboard! I use 2 short tethers on my gear! and switch them as often as ya need to !! just a thought
There was a recent survey of man overboard incidents along the Australian coast. Over a period of 12 months, every incident was examined. 100% of the people who did not go overboard survived the incident.
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