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Old 22-02-2016, 11:59   #16
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Re: It's down to two your thoughts

I like the 41, sailed with one as a buddy boat on an extended cruise. The only drawback was there wasn't much fuel capacity.
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Old 22-02-2016, 12:04   #17
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Re: It's down to two your thoughts

DEFINITELY the Morgan O.I. 41. But try and get a later 6th edition.
O.I. 416. Worth the extra money. Big plus, your partner will LOVE the
easy motion and the stiffness. Won the cruising class in the Columbus Day Regatta in Miami with this boat, to everyone's surprise.
I Brought the Bahamas in 3 different sailboats, a new,Westsail 32. then a Ron Holland One Tonner, ( 36') each for nearly a year. The Morgan O.I. 416
for 9 winters. Great boat.
The Endeavours that I inspected had not aged well.
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Old 22-02-2016, 12:07   #18
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Re: It's down to two your thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siberianhusky View Post
I've seen that 100 000$ refit cost posted many times.
Can I ask what people are doing for that kind of money?
Are we talking dropping a near wreck off at a yard and saying I want it like new?
Or the average person who understands they are going to be learning and doing a lot of the labour themselves and want a solid "reliable" 40 year old boat that looks OK?
that excessive quote is a favorite spew of trolls.
a reasonable 40 yr old cruiser does not take nearly that much, even when run over by a truck.
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Old 22-02-2016, 12:13   #19
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Re: It's down to two your thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siberianhusky View Post
I've seen that 100 000$ refit cost posted many times.
Can I ask what people are doing for that kind of money?
Are we talking dropping a near wreck off at a yard and saying I want it like new?
Or the average person who understands they are going to be learning and doing a lot of the labour themselves and want a solid "reliable" 40 year old boat that looks OK?
Repaint hull and deck $20k
Peel and redo a blistered bottom $15k?
Rigging, new mast wiring, paint mast $5k
New sails $20k
Rewiring ?
Tanks $3k
Rebuild rudder (wet core) $3k
Engine $5-20k
Electronics $5k
Autopilot $5k
Watermaker $5k
Batteries and charging system $3k
Cushions/upholstery $3k
and much more...etc
Assuming you do SOME of the grunt work.
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Old 22-02-2016, 13:07   #20
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Re: It's down to two your thoughts

Unless the year is wrong on the Morgan it is NOT an Out island which started production in 1972.


http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=2250
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=1721

Pro and cons:

Morgan is slightly shallower, but both boats are plenty shallow for the Bahamas. Morgan has a centerboard with will improve upwind performance a bit at the expense of extra maintenance. Both boats have the same beam but the Endevour's ends pinch some so even without the difference in length the Morgan would have more interior volume. The comparatively wide side decks of the Morgen cut this advantage some but make deck work significantly easier and safer in heavy weather.

The Morgan has a LOT more sail area. The Endevour's SA/D ratio is so low it is more or less in the category of motorsailor. For going up and down the ICW this won't affect things much since you motor there a lot. Once you get into the Caribbean then the Morgan has a stunningly huge advantage in light air. Fuel cost issues aside if you want to go anywhere that fuel availability might not be good the Endevour's at a real disadvantage.

Endevour: both boats weigh about the same and have similar beam and draft but the Endevour is shorter and has less ballast. That implys it has more weight committed to structure than the Morgan and assuming similar construction quality and techniques is stronger. This is not to say the Morgan is week, just that the Endevour is most likely stronger.

Interior: for a couple either interior would be plenty workable. If you had kids along then the Endevour would have an advantage with the greater number of berths and cabins. For a couple you only need extra berths when you have guests, and the reality is you are unlikely to have very many.

Speed-wise the Morgan (129 PHRF) is a fair bit faster than the Endevour (169 PHRF). That works out to about 176nm/d vs 163 nm/d expending racing levels of effort to sail the boat. I'd figure about 2/3 or 3/4 those distances with cruising effort expended. Around the Caribbean the longest passage between islands is maybe 3 days so that would be a 6 hr difference or 1/4 day so significant but not terribly so.


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Old 22-02-2016, 13:07   #21
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Re: It's down to two your thoughts

So what's wrong with a few cosmetic imperfections? I'm sure we all have 'em :-)

Yots are "wasting assets". That's why I so often talk of "sunk costs". IMO if you don't understand or accept that you gotta be able and willing to walk away, if necessary, from the total amountabux you have locked up in the boat, you need to reevaluate your situation.

For, say, 80K Canadabux (halfaton U.S.) you can pick up a well-found FP39. Design is cat's miow. Recognize that her hull and rigging may be thirty or forty years old with some refit along the way, and just don't sail the heck outta her. Exercise seamanship, don't push your luck on passage, fix what needs fixing when and as the fixing is needed. Never forget that for 20% of the buck you get 80% of the bang. To get perfection will cost you five times the bux it will take to get adequacy. We gotta keep some perspective 'ere! Didn't old Josh Slocum do his stuff in an oystersmack he rebuilt for squat from a wreck he found in a saltmarsh?

So we are back where we started. Some will like the Morgan. Me, I like the Endeavour. Strictly on the basis of personal predilections. Beyond that, nothing to choose twixt them.

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Old 22-02-2016, 13:40   #22
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Re: It's down to two your thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lizzy Belle View Post
I honestly don't want to sound rude, but every single day people ask this exact question on whatever boat they have seen / are considering.

Unless you are taking us with you, our opinion shouldn't really matter much. The question is: which one best fits your personal wants, needs & budget?
Another aspect to these regular comparison questions is that boats aren't like cars. I don't think many people, when first getting involved in sailing and so considering purchase of a sail boat understand that only a relatively small proportion were/are built production line style. You usually can't just pop down to the Toyota dealer to buy parts quoting year and model. In fact many boats were bought new as projects, typically complete hull and deck, but often finishing, rig/engine decision/install, etc etc completed by the first owner. And of course thousands of boats have been built by amateurs in backyards from scratch using plans bought straight from the designer.

And pertaining to this particular comparison, these are 45 year old boats. So I don't doubt for a moment that various owners, over those long years, have made numerous modifications and enhancements. Some may have been quite significant variations on the original designs (certainly based on many many comments/questions people for example post here about their boat projects). And perhaps some, I suspect wont have been so skillful or have used the best quality materials.
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Old 22-02-2016, 14:05   #23
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Re: It's down to two your thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
Repaint hull and deck $20k
Peel and redo a blistered bottom $15k?
Rigging, new mast wiring, paint mast $5k
New sails $20k
Rewiring ?
Tanks $3k
Rebuild rudder (wet core) $3k
Engine $5-20k
Electronics $5k
Autopilot $5k
Watermaker $5k
Batteries and charging system $3k
Cushions/upholstery $3k
and much more...etc
Assuming you do SOME of the grunt work.

Well I know for a fact some of this list is a complete crock!
For instance I painted my boat, properly, interlux from start to finish, interprotected the bottom AND new anti foul, I admit only a 25 foot boat but I know I didn't spend 2000 total on materials.
Rebuilt a wet rudder, once again cost was materials.
Assuming I would buy a boat with a blistered bottom? Would never happen.
In general I think the prices on this list are at least doubled if not trippled in some instances.
This list to me looks like you are assuming somebody is buying a pretty much derilict boat.
My current boat turns 40this year. Doesn't need anywhere near that much work even though it would cost less doing it to a 25' foot.
Mine all canvas and cushions were new when I bought it sail covers, dodger, privacy curtains for cockpit, forward hatch shade, tiller cover and cockpit cushions all out of dk blue sunbrella, New Vberth and setee cushions/backrests.
Tiller pilot never installed, New in the box gps, newer holding tank and jabsco head.
Standing rigging all less than 10 years old, sails same age not great not bad, couple years left in them. New "smart" charger and 2 new batteries. few year old outboard (yamaha 4 stroke).
Reciepts for everthing including the initial purchase, original build sheet and owners manual.
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Old 22-02-2016, 14:25   #24
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Re: It's down to two your thoughts

Wow ! The Morgan is the better boat if strength was a consideration . Zehag is correct , you do not have to rebuild these boats only make them reflect your needs . Electronics should not cost a lot for the Bahamas , a depth sounder , a couple hand held GPS s and a VHF radio . We spent many , many months in the Bahamas and down island with only a depth sounder and a VHF .
Myself I would not fix any thing unless it was broke and I would not buy any toys for the boat until there was a real need . I do not believe any sane person would buy a new mast and rig unless there was a demonstrated need !
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Old 22-02-2016, 14:47   #25
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Re: It's down to two your thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
Unless the year is wrong on the Morgan it is NOT an Out island which started production in 1972.


MORGAN 41 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
ENDEAVOUR 37 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

Pro and cons:

Morgan is slightly shallower, but both boats are plenty shallow for the Bahamas. Morgan has a centerboard with will improve upwind performance a bit at the expense of extra maintenance. Both boats have the same beam but the Endevour's ends pinch some so even without the difference in length the Morgan would have more interior volume. The comparatively wide side decks of the Morgen cut this advantage some but make deck work significantly easier and safer in heavy weather.

The Morgan has a LOT more sail area. The Endevour's SA/D ratio is so low it is more or less in the category of motorsailor. For going up and down the ICW this won't affect things much since you motor there a lot. Once you get into the Caribbean then the Morgan has a stunningly huge advantage in light air. Fuel cost issues aside if you want to go anywhere that fuel availability might not be good the Endevour's at a real disadvantage.

Endevour: both boats weigh about the same and have similar beam and draft but the Endevour is shorter and has less ballast. That implys it has more weight committed to structure than the Morgan and assuming similar construction quality and techniques is stronger. This is not to say the Morgan is week, just that the Endevour is most likely stronger.

Interior: for a couple either interior would be plenty workable. If you had kids along then the Endevour would have an advantage with the greater number of berths and cabins. For a couple you only need extra berths when you have guests, and the reality is you are unlikely to have very many.

Speed-wise the Morgan (129 PHRF) is a fair bit faster than the Endevour (169 PHRF). That works out to about 176nm/d vs 163 nm/d expending racing levels of effort to sail the boat. I'd figure about 2/3 or 3/4 those distances with cruising effort expended. Around the Caribbean the longest passage between islands is maybe 3 days so that would be a 6 hr difference or 1/4 day so significant but not terribly so.


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I great rely. Seems unbiased.
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Old 22-02-2016, 17:16   #26
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Re: It's down to two your thoughts

I agree that Adelie's reply is an excellent "compare and contrast". But OP Beachbum gives us no clue to what background he might already have. Until and unless a potential buyer has considerable knowledge and experience both of sailing/cruising and of his own self, comparison of two boats on the level that Adelie so competently furnishes it is, in my view, totally moot.

Grantmc makes a trenchant statement that is too seldom made when people tell us they want to run away to sea. Many such seem in their initial postings to think, precisely, that "driving" a boat is like driving a car. You buy it, you turn the key and — wrooom! — Bob's yer uncle. I blame the marketing "profession" and the ad-writers for propagating that delusion. I think we have a responsibility to disabuse people of it.

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Old 22-02-2016, 18:08   #27
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Re: It's down to two your thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
The Morgan 41 (it is the Out Island 41 I assume) will have almost double the living space of the Endeavor. Great Bahamas boat but it is a 1971 model so old and condition will be king in this situation.

If both are in similar condition and similar price then the Morgan without a doubt. But bottom line will be the condition of the boat and engine. If the Morgan is trashed then forget about it. However there's lots of Morgan 41s around and you could easily find another.
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Old 22-02-2016, 18:30   #28
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Re: It's down to two your thoughts

Man I love this website thanks to everyone taking the time to give me feedback most very informative some ehhhh.... But thanks
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Old 24-02-2016, 14:48   #29
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Re: It's down to two your thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeachbumKW View Post
We have narrowed it down to 2 that we are making another visit to look at and prepared to make an offer your general thoughts on
1971 41 Morgan sloop
1979 37 Endeavour A Plan sloop
Wife and I will be cruising the Bahamas 6 months a year
Both boats will get you to the Bahamas, the OI 41's have been around the world. I would hate to see you pay more than $25K for either. Both will need your care, love, attention, and about $30-$50K.
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Old 02-03-2016, 00:05   #30
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Re: It's down to two your thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeachbumKW View Post
We have narrowed it down to 2 that we are making another visit to look at and prepared to make an offer your general thoughts on
1971 41 Morgan sloop
1979 37 Endeavour A Plan sloop
Wife and I will be cruising the Bahamas 6 months a year
The other six months, and much of the six you spend in the Bahamas, will be spent doing maintenance. I strongly encourage you to give the decks, hull-to-deck joints, ports and hatches of both boats a good spray with a high-pressure hose to check for leaks. You'll probably need someone to help you keep count.

If either smells bad when you go aboard, run away quickly.
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