Island Packet Closing doors

[Lizzy Belle]

Has IPY issued their statement yet? Or are all the posts still based on the assumption that IPY is over & done?

[Sailmonkey]

Originally Posted by Lizzy Belle

Has IPY issued their statement yet? Or are all the posts still based on the assumption that IPY is over & done?

It's still 06:00 in Florida........


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[Polux]

Originally Posted by sanibel sailor

I am still amazed that anyone ever buys a brand new boat. I once bought a brand new kayak, but every other boat has been used, either old or ancient.

You should be very grateful to the ones that buy new boats otherwise you would not have boats to buy on the used market

The reason why people buy new boats is the same reason people buy new cars: because they can.

I agree that an used car or an used boat is probably a better deal in what regards what a given amount of money can buy, but if you have the money to buy the best there is on the market, new cars or boats are far better than older ones.

Of course that is not always true and particularly regarding IP you have a point there since they were making practically the same type of boat for decades. No wonder that the owner of IP had said once that the biggest competition for new IP were used IP, since they were practically the same boat and some even say that the new ones were of less build quality

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by Polux

You should be very grateful to the ones that buy new boats otherwise you would not have boats to buy on the used market

The reason why people buy new boats is the same reason people buy new cars: because they can.

I agree that an used car or an used boat is probably a better deal in what regards what a given amount of money can buy, but if you have the money to buy the best there is on the market, new cars or boats are far better than older ones.

Of course that is not always true and particularly regarding IP you have a point there since they were making practically the same type of boat for decades. No wonder that the owner of IP had said once that the biggest competition for new IP were used IP, since they were practically the same boat and some even say that the new ones were of less build quality

Some would say the same about some of the entry level production boats as well although they didn't make the same mistake with building the same boats as they did 10 years ago.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

There are very few new EU boats sold in USA, that is true. 303 in 2013 > 20ft

And considering that those should be almost all Bavaria and as by far the European brands that sell more on the American market are the US made Jeanneau and Beneteau that gives the idea that European boats are only inexpensive boats with a lower quality than expensive American brands....that by the way almost don't sell boats on the US too, or anywhere for that matter.

It would be interesting to know on that year how many quality American sailboats were sold on the US? I mean excluding Hunter and Catalina.

[a64pilot]

OK, lets keep Politics out of this please.

I think IP's biggest competitor was a used IP myself. I never even for a moment entertained a new boat, anybody's new boat to be truthful. Depreciation is just too high for me.
Who are new boat buyers? I don't know, but bet they really do not care if their boat has a life expectancy of greater than 30 or 40 years, if you can buy new, you want new and will either buy another new one in a few years, or a Business Jet or maybe a vacation house somewhere.
I believe most new boat buyers want flash and to impress their non boating friends with huge salons, and lots of bright flashy things. I say most, not all, there are a very few serious new boat buyers with the cash to go new, but I believe if you have that much cash, know what your about, you may go custom?


My IP is 30 years old and cost less than 20% of a new one, yes I will have almost the purchase price into the re-fit, but that includes many things I'd have to add to a new IP too, not much money in fixing structure, as nothing is broken. My chain plates are 30 yrs old, I will have them replaced by a better design / better material, so they will last 40+ years? Turn key cost is $10,000. Not chump change, but not so bad if it only has to be done once in the life of a boat. The aluminum tanks I'm going to try to nurse them along as a bore scope inspection finds them in good shape. Other than that and the replacing standing rigging, re-wiring and re-lamping, new antenna etc on the mast, new fabric on everything, seat cushions etc. the only other money I'm spending, I'd spend on a new boat too.

Except I wouldn't be getting that beautiful, old growth Teak interior, as I believe that is gone now, newer IP's don't have it, they have some kind of African wood, that may be more appealing I don't know, but it wasn't the traditional teak that I would want.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

.
Who are new boat buyers? I don't know, but bet they really do not care if their boat has a life expectancy of greater than 30 or 40 years, if you can buy new, you want new and will either buy another new one in a few years, or a Business Jet or maybe a vacation house somewhere.
...I say most, not all, there are a very few serious new boat buyers with the cash to go new, but I believe if you have that much cash, know what your about, you may go custom?
..

There is the general idea that a guy that has the money to buy new has the money for jets or vacations houses. Many times the vacation house is the boat and regarding custom boats they cost generally 50% to 100% more than a small production boat and can have problems that a builder that makes a small series has already sorted out.

Guys that have a budget of 300k for a new boat are not on the same league than the ones that have 500k and this one are not on the same league as the ones that have 1 million neither these ones are on the league of the ones that have several millions. Only the ones that are on the last two categories will normally consider custom boats.

It is good not to forget that a good aluminum voyage boat like the Garcia 45 will cost over 700k and a 52 will cost well over 1 million US dollars. Expensive for many, affordable for some but that does not mean that the ones that can afford them can afford jets or custom boats of that size and type.

Regarding money and new boats the European economy is no better than the American one, quite the contrary, it is just that cruising and sailing is more popular in Europe among all classes including the ones that have money for expensive boats.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by chadc

The problem, The U.S. economy has been going down the drain for the last two decades and isn't likely to improve ...

Perhaps, but the economy hasn't seemed to dampen RV sales, for instance.

RV Shipments and Sales Data ➥ The Recreation Vehicle Industry Association: Business Indicators

RV shipments in January of 2015 totalled 28,494 units, 11.9% greater than the same month in 2014, and the largest January total in nine years. Shipments in 2015 are expected to reach approximately 365,000 units, which would be the highest total since 2006. This would mark six consecutive years of shipments growth as the industry has bounced back from effects of the Great Recession.

In 2014, RV shipments climbed to 356,735 units, a gain of 11.1% over the previous year. This was the fifth consecutive annual increase and the fourth double digit percentage gain in RV shipments since the end of the last recession.

[Lizzy Belle]

Originally Posted by Sailmonkey

It's still 06:00 in Florida.......

It was a rhetorical question. Feels like we're at a funeral while the patient is still in the ICU.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Interesting take away from the various posts:
- Lots of folks want to buy them USED(presumably much cheaper)
- Lots of people lamenting loss of the option (but no indication they were about to buy a NEW one)

Not one person has posted that they were just about to buy a NEW one. A good USED boat market is a nice thing to have...except when it means there is no NEW boat market.

For all those lamenting the loss, put your money where your mouth is and IP will survive.

PS: I wish no ill upon the company, the workers or those who sail IP's. If I was looking at a mono they would have been on my list. The problem is there are better options all things considered and this is borne out by thier failing sales.

OK, I'm that person. Back in 2011, we placed two offers on Island Packet 485s. One was a two year old boat down in San Diego which actually ended up selling for what we thought was a ridiculous price $50,000 more than our offer, and the other one was a brand new 485 up around Sacramento. We were interested at $400,000, but before we sent in our offer, we learned that it had sold for slightly more. So we're very familiar with the boat, however.... We then realized how much more boat we could buy along with quality when we switched and began looking at Jeanneau 54DS, Tayana 58 and ultimately Oyster. I still remember asking my broker to show me how the main saloon table folded down on the IP 485 down in San Diego, only to end up breaking the damn thing off its hinges trying to perform the task. It took us 1/2 hour to try to fix the table using tools we found onboard. It was an eye opening moment... when compared to other boats... Several things on the IP didn't make any sense, like the cheap crappy fold down table or the master cabin bed placed at a weird angle... on a $450k boat.

On the Oyster, or most any other boat, a 300 pound human can be thrown against the table without it breaking or coming loose. On the Island Packet all it would take is a small child leaning on it at the dock to dislodge and break the table leg.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Perhaps, but the economy hasn't seemed to dampen RV sales, for instance.

RV Shipments and Sales Data ➥ The Recreation Vehicle Industry Association: Business Indicators

RV shipments in January of 2015 totalled 28,494 units, 11.9% greater than the same month in 2014, and the largest January total in nine years. Shipments in 2015 are expected to reach approximately 365,000 units, which would be the highest total since 2006. This would mark six consecutive years of shipments growth as the industry has bounced back from effects of the Great Recession.

In 2014, RV shipments climbed to 356,735 units, a gain of 11.1% over the previous year. This was the fifth consecutive annual increase and the fourth double digit percentage gain in RV shipments since the end of the last recession.

Interesting statistic. My own take on it is that as the baby boomer generation is on the verge or at their retirement age many of them, especially the non-nautical types, are choosing RVs as their retirement pad the same way we are thinking about boats for the same purpose. With the big difference that a new RV is still cheaper than many used boats and definitely cheaper than most new boats. Also I'd assume they'd be saving a ton of $$ by escaping the tax/HOA payments not to mention travelling all over US, including Canada and Mexico.

IMO the RV buying stats are not indicators that the recession is over but rather reflection of the fact that for many they are now meaningful affordable alternative to a house in Florida or Arizona for retirement. I bet you that for every new RV purchased there is a house either sold or not purchased somewhere else.

[tdoster]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

OK, lets keep Politics out of this please.

I think IP's biggest competitor was a used IP myself. I never even for a moment entertained a new boat, anybody's new boat to be truthful. Depreciation is just too high for me.
Who are new boat buyers? I don't know, but bet they really do not care if their boat has a life expectancy of greater than 30 or 40 years, if you can buy new, you want new and will either buy another new one in a few years, or a Business Jet or maybe a vacation house somewhere.
I believe most new boat buyers want flash and to impress their non boating friends with huge salons, and lots of bright flashy things. I say most, not all, there are a very few serious new boat buyers with the cash to go new, but I believe if you have that much cash, know what your about, you may go custom?


My IP is 30 years old and cost less than 20% of a new one, yes I will have almost the purchase price into the re-fit, but that includes many things I'd have to add to a new IP too, not much money in fixing structure, as nothing is broken. My chain plates are 30 yrs old, I will have them replaced by a better design / better material, so they will last 40+ years? Turn key cost is $10,000. Not chump change, but not so bad if it only has to be done once in the life of a boat. The aluminum tanks I'm going to try to nurse them along as a bore scope inspection finds them in good shape. Other than that and the replacing standing rigging, re-wiring and re-lamping, new antenna etc on the mast, new fabric on everything, seat cushions etc. the only other money I'm spending, I'd spend on a new boat too.

Except I wouldn't be getting that beautiful, old growth Teak interior, as I believe that is gone now, newer IP's don't have it, they have some kind of African wood, that may be more appealing I don't know, but it wasn't the traditional teak that I would want.

I agree 100% with the addition that your 38 sells on the used market close to what it originally sold for. That seems to not be the case today with newer boats seemingly losing value faster. What was attractive about buying a new boat in the past was that you could sell it used for around what you paid for it 5-10 years later, so essentially losing little of the original investment less the normal and customary maintenance and costs associated with owning any yacht, which one could realize a net gain over a used boat purchase.

Maybe because the huge increase in the cost of new yachts compared to the costs just a few short years ago not keeping pace with the economy and what the consumer can swallow.

But I am with you. With so many fine examples on the used market, it becomes a hard sell to want to go new especially since the inherent design flaws and complaints are still there, and I don't know why Bob held course on some of these items. Apples to apples, I think many IP owners would love to move up to larger new boat with external chain plates, glass tanks, and updated underbody while keeping all what makes the brand so appealing in the design. Some changes in the interior materials and layout are not my favorite, but seemingly where the other brands are going as well. Any forum, you will find chainplates as the biggest complaint, so why didn't Bob proactively change that design other than larger material with the same inherent long term issues.

[tdoster]

Originally Posted by chadc

Wasn't really meant to be political, but I can see how it was taken to be that way, I just meant it to mean the screwed up economy is the biggest problem.

Some would rather use the term "changing" or "evolving" economy. In any event, I believe you are correct. The cost of living and discretionary cash is a big part of the equation. Temporary, quick (cruise lines, RV's) are far easier to digest by the 40 somethings over larger boats that require a big commitment in slips, storage and maintenance. Not easier to dump when the economy dumps again. Consumer sentiment and the feeling of long-term and early retirement lost on more millennials than their baby boomer parents...

[avb3]

Stop with the political commentary. That is not the purpose of this forum and some posts have been deleted. If in doubt, please read our rules.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

OK, I'm that person. Back in 2011, we placed two offers on Island Packet 485s. One was a two year old boat down in San Diego which actually ended up selling for what we thought was a ridiculous price $50,000 more than our offer, and the other one was a brand new 485 up around Sacramento. We were interested at $400,000, but before we sent in our offer, we learned that it had sold for slightly more. So we're very familiar with the boat, however.... We then realized how much more boat we could buy along with quality when we switched and began looking at Jeanneau 54DS, Tayana 58 and ultimately Oyster. I still remember asking my broker to show me how the main saloon table folded down on the IP 485 down in San Diego, only to end up breaking the damn thing off its hinges trying to perform the task. It took us 1/2 hour to try to fix the table using tools we found onboard. It was an eye opening moment... when compared to other boats... Several things on the IP didn't make any sense, like the cheap crappy fold down table or the master cabin bed placed at a weird angle... on a $450k boat.

On the Oyster, or most any other boat, a 300 pound human can be thrown against the table without it breaking or coming loose. On the Island Packet all it would take is a small child leaning on it at the dock to dislodge and break the table leg.

So the closest we have come to a new IP buyer is someone who thought seriously about it half a decate ago.

Given the selection of people on this site (lots of serious cruisers), thats not a good sign for a production boat builder who's focus claims to be seriuos cruisers.