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Old 07-03-2016, 11:25   #376
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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So Minaret now that your back in the thread, in days gone by,
How were common were chopper guns used in construction of mass produced boats?
My first boat was USYacht 27 and before and after purchasing her I was a member of the USY owners forum. USYachts was a subsidiary of Bayliner but had totally different facilities, management, accounting, worforce, etc. from the parent company and from their corporate ugly cousin - the Buccaneer. On USY owners forum some years back there was interesting information from someone who was a plant manager at one of 3 USY plants in US in the early 80s. He said that they frowned on the use of chopper guns at their plants while Buccaneer and Bayliner were using them early on. However, he said that when a new manager would come in and if the orders were piling up he had big brass breathing on his neck to speed things up and use chopper guns, etc. According to him, it also varied by plant, some resisted completely while others gave in. This discrepancy in quality of the same models did not help the brand I guess.

I lucked out, my boat was built in 1982 toward the end of its production run having previous bugs worked out, if any. I had a very solid robust hull, not chopper built, with over 2.5" at the hull bottom before the keel stub. When we replaced a malfunctioning depth sounder in 2008 we saw how thick the hull was at that point and that it was bone dry and looked new when we took the sender unit out. My marine pro buddy who was helping me was very impressed. Everything that was wrong on that boat was the result of either poor maintenance or some accident, not the quality of the build. That of course did not stop the USYachts from shutting down in the mid 80s together with many other decent quality yet affordable makers.
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Old 07-03-2016, 11:47   #377
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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.................That of course did not stop the USYachts from shutting down in the mid 80s together with many other decent quality yet affordable makers.
Nice report. Very indicative of well build boats that had poor maintenance by POs. Most didn't "get" that chainplates are part of normal maintenance. Sheez...

Remember that "trickle down economics voodoo" Luxury Tax. THAT'S what closed so many builders. Brought you from a president from Maine, no less.
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Old 07-03-2016, 14:14   #378
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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Nice report. Very indicative of well build boats that had poor maintenance by POs. Most didn't "get" that chainplates are part of normal maintenance. Sheez...

Remember that "trickle down economics voodoo" Luxury Tax. THAT'S what closed so many builders. Brought you from a president from Maine, no less.
In USYachts' case they went under a little bit before that tax. But Pearson who purchased molds from USY in the mid 1980s and built a few boats under their old moniker "Triton" (but not related to their 1960s Tritons) did go under in early 1990s as a result of that luxury tax. As well as O'day and some other very decent builders.

One of the very first boats I learned on was O'day 39 based on Jeanneau mold. It was literally one of 3 last O'day 39s built, the owner of the sailing club having purchased those last 3 at an O'day liquidation auction unfinished and had to install all the systems etc. I only realized how good of a boat that was many years later as initially I had no frame of reference for comparison. It took an enormous amount of abuse from the learning crowd but always came out with flying colors.

I don't know what is it with the American buying public which, not just in marine industry but in general, turned to Chinese crap and away from quality home based construction. Especially if you consider that the price difference was not that great if adjusted for quality and long term use.
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Old 08-03-2016, 11:01   #379
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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I don't know what is it with the American buying public which, not just in marine industry but in general, turned to Chinese crap and away from quality home based construction. Especially if you consider that the price difference was not that great if adjusted for quality and long term use.
I think socially the generation now has changed. We don't pay to have a toaster or tv repaired any longer. We pitch it and buy a new one. We don't buy and return the glass soda bottle any longer, we get it in aluminum and plastic and pitch it/or recycle if you're lucky. How many folks have a car engine rebuilt these days? Most will just drive it and then trade it in on a new one. Even now, the average American changes houses every 7 years. I can't even imagine my parents and for sure their parents doing anything like that.

I think this translates directly to today's buyer. There are certainly exceptions and it doesn't translate to every buyer, but there are obvious trends there.

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Old 08-03-2016, 13:23   #380
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

Ahhhhhhhh....postering continues with no answers on whether IP is or is not closing its doors, the continued rambling like coconut shells clopping endlessly on the boardwalk of a small town of yokles with nothing much to say except to continue something about observing the obvious weather which we already know looking out our own window.

To sum up: When are we going to get some news about IP?
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Old 08-03-2016, 13:30   #381
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

I think you're just adding to the coconut clopping
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Old 08-03-2016, 13:42   #382
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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I'm pretty sure the mark up on the other items is similarly high but since I only have experience pricing and installing a windlass I will comment on that.

When I decided to install a windlass my first step was to look for a new windlass. Since my boat is 20,000+lbs loaded it needed to be robust. So anything strong enough for my situation was between $2.5K and $3.5K, give or take, with pro-installation by the authorized dealer at another $2-3K. After realizing that a 35 year old boat getting a new windlass installed by auth. dealer is a big money losing proposition I opted for a used very robust Nilssen for $600 and my marine pro buddy helped me to install it in 2 half days worth of work (1/2 day for epoxying G10 under the deck, etc) and 2nd 1/2 day for the actual windlass installation, testing, etc. but even if I had to pay a "boat yard guy" say $40-50/hr, altogether the labor would've cost me $300-400 total (my buddy did not have a boat at the time and I compensated his time by unlimited use of my boat whenever he wanted to).

Now how can IP justify charging $13K for $5-6K max worth of products and labor? (not to mention that they probably don't pay their labor $40-50/hr nor do they pay retail for windlasses so the real cost to them is probably $2K, may be $2.5-3K max but I'll assume the most expensive case scenario for them) Is this their usual mark up? In that case my marine pro buddy was right when he pronounced that their new IP 38 quality did not reflect it's boat show price. From that revelation to bankruptcy is but a very short step.
I can assume you don't run a small business. The actual hard costs of a build are just a part of the overall costs that go into building a boat. And their discounts on parts are not truly realized either to your point.

So, can you justify spending $2500 on a navigation system for the average car out there for a product that would cost me a small fraction to buy aftermarket and install? The price is not slowing down the auto-makers any. But they will tell you there are profit points the equal things out in the long run and there is a difference between factory installed and after-market in the mind of the consumer.

But going back to your costs if we just look at the Windlass as a component of the overall boat. What about marketing, utilities, taxes, labor, rent, government fees (EPA, licenses, permits, etc.). And anyone who owns a business that offers employees benefits would explain that the average employee costs at least twice what they are paid, so the hourly labor is about right. Then you have your dealer network, commissions, costs associated with the failure of the Windlass now that builder is assuming responsibility for the product, it will come back to them for repair during the warranty period. Business Insurance, Workers Comp, Medical... Under marketing, you have to deliver boats to boat shows, advertise, etc...


And Island Time, you summed it up perfectly. Walmart. Quality does not sell, only price, especially in America as everything has now become disposable.


And the biggest reason ANY manufacture options are higher and people are willing to pay it is because it is part of the financed transaction. This is not unique to IP or any manufacture and they ALL do it.


Can I get some Rum in my coconut?
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Old 08-03-2016, 14:07   #383
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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I can assume you don't run a small business. The actual hard costs of a build are just a part of the overall costs that go into building a boat. And their discounts on parts are not truly realized either to your point.

So, can you justify spending $2500 on a navigation system for the average car out there for a product that would cost me a small fraction to buy aftermarket and install? The price is not slowing down the auto-makers any. But they will tell you there are profit points the equal things out in the long run and there is a difference between factory installed and after-market in the mind of the consumer.

But going back to your costs if we just look at the Windlass as a component of the overall boat. What about marketing, utilities, taxes, labor, rent, government fees (EPA, licenses, permits, etc.). And anyone who owns a business that offers employees benefits would explain that the average employee costs at least twice what they are paid, so the hourly labor is about right. Then you have your dealer network, commissions, costs associated with the failure of the Windlass now that builder is assuming responsibility for the product, it will come back to them for repair during the warranty period. Business Insurance, Workers Comp, Medical... Under marketing, you have to deliver boats to boat shows, advertise, etc...


And Island Time, you summed it up perfectly. Walmart. Quality does not sell, only price, especially in America as everything has now become disposable.


And the biggest reason ANY manufacture options are higher and people are willing to pay it is because it is part of the financed transaction. This is not unique to IP or any manufacture and they ALL do it.
Only partially agree. Now, let's say the buyer does not chose that IP install a $2K windlass for $13K. Will IPs marketing, workman's comp, comm'l. rent and other costs go down as a result of that non-installation?

The pricing mentality which IP described is precisely the reason for the demise of many of the manufacturers, IP included. IMO it is often better to sell at a very small mark up many items than sell only a few at very high margin. Not always of course but often. And I bet you the windlass' sticker price was but a small example of how they overpriced themselves compared to their competition.

And all of that discussion would be moot if IP's most recent quality reflected the prices they are demanding of their new boats. It does not. And that, IMO, is the culprit of their current difficulties. I bet you if they market their new 36-38' boats for under $300K they'll be selling like hot cakes. But at $500-600K uncommissioned - not so much.
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Old 08-03-2016, 18:25   #384
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

Not everyone likes beige gel coat.....
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Old 08-03-2016, 18:31   #385
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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Not everyone likes beige gel coat.....



I heard they did a bunch of research on which color promotes sea sickness the least, and that was what they came up with. Sure is a PITA to color match-very pink, needs lot's of red pigment. Also read that the Navy did similar research and came up with a gross shade of green, paradoxically enough. Not worth it for me.
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Old 08-03-2016, 20:46   #386
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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Also read that the Navy did similar research and came up with a gross shade of green, paradoxically enough. Not worth it for me.
Off topic: That's what I've been told regarding why our equipment is a specific shade of blue. They did a study that this shade of blue is a calming color. But everyone else's equipment on the boat is black or battleship gray! Though I also heard that it was the favorite color of the wife of the Admiral in charge of the program at the time!


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Old 08-03-2016, 22:54   #387
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

Here's an absolutely true story from five years ago. My wife and I were seriously looking at purchasing an Island Packet 485. One very nice boat with a dark blue Awlgriped hull sold for more than we were willing to spend at around $450k. The second 485 was brand new and we figured it could be had for just over $400k or so due to the economy and the dealers situation, but.... The hull color was the ugly beige. I'm sorry, but I just couldn't get excited about it. In the end, just as I was about to put in an offer, my wife said "why are you doing that?" "For the amount that boat is going to cost, we need to like the way it looks.... and neither of us want a beige boat." "We need to be 100% happy with it."

So we moved on.
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Old 09-03-2016, 05:53   #388
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

There's a IP 40 we've seen anchored a lot that has a dark blue hull. Much better aesthetically and actually makes the beige look halfway good. If I were to buy a used one (and I'm not, having gone from full keel boat to my current one, couldn't go back in performance) I would just budget 15K for the awlgrip job.

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Old 09-03-2016, 06:04   #389
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

Doesn't IP have a patent or something on their beige paint?
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Old 09-03-2016, 06:23   #390
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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Doesn't IP have a patent or something on their beige paint?
I doubt it.

“The distinctive ivory color of the Island Packet’s hull was a “pragmatic decision,” according to Bob but has since become a brand identity for his yacht line. It was simply the original color used by the fiberglass manufacturer and since Island Packet boats were their highest volume product, that’s the way they came out. Bob liked the color as it stood apart from other companies so he didn’t see any need to change it.”
From ➥ Business Magazine | BABM | Coverstory |Bob Johonson: A Humble Industry Leader … Island Packet Yachts
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