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Old 07-03-2016, 06:52   #361
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

I think those "doing it" are just as prone to partake in bashing threads

But that's just my opinion


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Old 07-03-2016, 06:57   #362
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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Originally Posted by exMaggieDrum View Post
Polux, I would have to agree with you provided the new designs were actually desirable improvements rather than just new for marketing and flash. Or cheaper materials or shoddier construction. I'm not saying there aren't any but often times the tried and true is far better than the new and "improved". Price points do matter though - very much. I personally wouldn't buy some of the new designs for any amount of money.
It is good to refer to what I was talking about. Boats like the Halberg Rassy 48MKII and the Allures 52 (the ones that I referred and cost the same or less than the IP 485) have nothing to do with flash or trendy and both are the continuation of long proved tradition building that type of bluewater boats. The HR 48 is even a MKII and a rather old design even so vastly more updated than the IP 485.











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Old 07-03-2016, 07:21   #363
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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That's an interesting video. The amount of CNC automation is pretty impressive. How does this compare to say how Catalina builds their yachts today? ..
- Zeb
Bavaria is the brand that uses more CNC automation and the CEO come from the car industry. Other European brands like Hanse, Jeanneau or Beneteau use it but on not a so large scale.

I don't believe American brands use this kind of CNC automation, not even on the Jeanneau/Beneteau factories. Those are very expensive machines and to get a profit out of them you need big production numbers and I don't think that any American builder has a production big enough to make them profitable. But they surely can lower costs if production is big enough.

I can be wrong regarding their use on American shipyards. Tell me what you see if you are visiting Catalina shipyard.

Jeffa that produces rudders and rudder systems for several European big Shipyards also has a lot of machinery for assuring a fast and quality production:

It is impossible for a small brand to match that in quality and price if they are made in their own shipyard without using high tech and expensive equipment (that are not justified by the small production). Bavaria is a big brand with a huge production and buys them to Jeffa.
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Old 07-03-2016, 07:36   #364
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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Originally Posted by gjorgensen View Post
Outbound sold out 2015 production for the 46 early last year. From I've heard 2016 production for the 46 is either sold out or close already. ..
I don't know what that means. What is the production capacity of Outbound? Outbound buys only for commands. How many boats have they built in 2015?
3?. It is not fair to compare the production of a very small production shipyard with a medium production one and that is what IP is supposed to be (like Halberg Rassy or Allures). Besides Outbound are made by a sub contractor in China and Island Packet is made in the US.

The fact that they don't sell boats accordingly with their production potential is an entire different story Oubound can survive doing 2 boats a year, Island Packet can't because it is geared for a much bigger production and it is not made in China where you contract cheap labor or fire them accordingly with the number of boats you are going to make.
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The fact that boats like Outbound (and HR, Oyster, Amel, Malo, the French aluminum builders, etc.) are continuing to sell says there's a market. The difference I see with IP is that all of those other boats offer a more modern look, more modern layout, and are not full keel boats. Most are also now solent rigs. That also says IP could still be rolling along if they were willing to progress with the market rather than basically offering the same product over and over again.
With this I fully agree even if the Oubound and the H&R48 are also slightly outdated boats. I have no doubt that the H&R is going to be substituted by a new model soon. I have my doubts regarding if that is going to happen with the Outbound.

The Amel has updated models and to join them you have what I believe will be one of the best, in what regards bluewater/Voyage fiberglass boats. It will be coming soon:




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Old 07-03-2016, 08:40   #365
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Bavaria is the brand that uses more CNC automation and the CEO come from the car industry. Other European brands like Hanse, Jeanneau or Beneteau use it but on not a so large scale.

I don't believe American brands use this kind of CNC automation, not even on the Jeanneau/Beneteau factories. Those are very expensive machines and to get a profit out of them you need big production numbers and I don't think that any American builder has a production big enough to make them profitable. But they surely can lower costs if production is big enough.

I can be wrong regarding their use on American shipyards. Tell me what you see if you are visiting Catalina shipyard.

Jeffa that produces rudders and rudder systems for several European big Shipyards also has a lot of machinery for assuring a fast and quality production:

It is impossible for a small brand to match that in quality and price if they are made in their own shipyard without using high tech and expensive equipment (that are not justified by the small production). Bavaria is a big brand with a huge production and buys them to Jeffa.


Lol! Here is the CNC outfit I work with. Have done a great deal of tooling work here, including on AC boats. They are one of the most high tech facilities in the world. And-gasp-not in Europe!

Using 5 axis CNC to pre drill deck holes for hardware is not that big a time saver, and is certainly not "robotic construction". Still haven't seen you post vid of robot arms actually building a hull.


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Old 07-03-2016, 09:52   #366
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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Originally Posted by minaret View Post

Using 5 axis CNC to pre drill deck holes for hardware is not that big a time saver, and is certainly not "robotic construction". Still haven't seen you post vid of robot arms actually building a hull.
Seriously. And also 90% of that rudder video was manual welding and epoxy work. hahaha.
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Old 07-03-2016, 09:57   #367
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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Some confusion here. I have never said that they were used to build a hull.

You said that they were not used on the marine yacht industry and I showed to you that they were (on that Bavaria shipyard video).
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Old 07-03-2016, 10:05   #368
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Lol! Here is the CNC outfit I work with. Have done a great deal of tooling work here, including on AC boats. They are one of the most high tech facilities in the world. And-gasp-not in Europe!

Using 5 axis CNC to pre drill deck holes for hardware is not that big a time saver, and is certainly not "robotic construction". Still haven't seen you post vid of robot arms actually building a hull.


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In Europe you find shipyards of mass production boats making use of them. I don't now if any US brand qualifies as mass production and it is possible that they are used by European brands with boat factories on US, like Jeanneau and Beneteau but I doubt they are used by Catalina and much less by Hunter that has today a very reduced boat production.

Do you think I am wrong about that? and that Catalina is using 5 axis CNC tolling machines?

If so they would be interested in showing it on this video...but the manufacture contrasts sharply with Bavaria in what regards high tech tooling.


Also it seems Catalina has a problem regarding sales that are lowering drastically: On the last 3 quarters of 2014 they sold 809 boats, including small open boats and on the first 3 quarters of 2015 only sold 269 boats, more than 3 times less.

Do you think they will follow Hunter in what regards becoming a small production shipyard? or will they change their boats and building methods in time to recover and be competitive on the market again?
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Old 07-03-2016, 10:07   #369
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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When I'm at sea and I see another sail, it never crosses my mind to be critical of the vessel. I just see another Captain enjoying the wind. My thoughts are with the team at IP, good luck and fair winds.
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Old 07-03-2016, 10:18   #370
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

I am leaning with the group which feels IPs just got too pricey. There are lots around; easy to tell because they kept their design/shape over the years. Like Volvos. And there are lots around as observers have noted, and their owners, for the most part, kept them in very good shape. That meant a good used market, and over the years, I've noted, you could find a good one of their many models, 4-5 years old, at 60% of new cost or thereabouts. Hard to resist.

I have in front of me the sales brochure for IP for the 2010 Annapolis Sailboat show. Cost of a new IP 465 was $659K; a 485 $769K. Unfortunately, this price was barely commissioned and did not include the following items that most owners did put on to judge from looking at used IP advertisements. I'm going to list the "extras" for the IP 485 only. The smaller boats charged a little less for these items: GENSET $24950; Elec winches $14950; elec windlass $12950; bowthruster $8995. Instruments were included but not a chart plotter nor radar. You're looking at a bit north of $800K, and the prices did not go down in the last 6 years.

Perhaps someone with accurate price data can compare these to an HR46 or HR 48; Hylas 49; and I know the Oyster 475 or so is over $1M.
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Old 07-03-2016, 10:20   #371
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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I maintain a charter fleet, mostly new Bavaria's, a few Catalina's and the like. I've been trying to talk the owner into an IP. For the charterers who go out for a couple weeks in the islands instead of daysailors. My main reasoning is the amounts he spends on bottom repairs on lightly built fin keeled boats. The charter crowd grounds often, and these can be unforgiving waters for that habit. A boat that can actually take a beating would save him a lot of doss over the boats that need major repairs every time they touch bottom. It's no wonder insurance companies HATE charter fleets. They're running up the cost for the rest of us.
But when the average middle class wants a charter boat, they want the biggest boat they can afford that sleeps the most people comfortably. Long dead are the days of the Charlie Morgan OI 41 SUV Charter workhorse that you could drag off the reef and patch the gel and put back in service. Also IP never even tried the route that Bob should remember from Endeavor with the owner and charter version of the same boat.

And you are right, many of these people don't care what is under the boat as they spend most of their time motoring from anchorage to anchorage.

But the reality is the insurance and credit card companies are footing most of the bill for the damage, not the charter operators.
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Old 07-03-2016, 10:48   #372
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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This seems to make a lot of sense. Yet real estate is super strong again already , in the PNW anyway. Higher than before the crash by far. I guess that takes $ away from recreation also.
Even though home values are up, home ownership is way down. There is still plenty of cash out there to invest, but those are coming from the investors, not actual people buying homes and moving up every few years like we were in the late 90's.

Compare to the boat market of the 70's. A very strong small boat market and the natural instinct was to move up as you progressed. As that started drying up and the boomers had more money, the large boat market flourished and fewer and fewer small boats.

Still, the loyal IP owners, like myself, can't afford that jump from the 32-38 IP to a new ~40, the next step financially on a new boat would be a Catalina for half the cost, or a larger used IP.
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Old 07-03-2016, 10:54   #373
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

So Minaret now that your back in the thread, in days gone by,
How were common were chopper guns used in construction of mass produced boats?
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Old 07-03-2016, 11:00   #374
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

At least in my neck of the woods, housing values and land values have not recovered.
If you can believe it, the value of "raw" land is about what it was in the 1970's.
This being SE US, specifically South Ga.
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Old 07-03-2016, 11:09   #375
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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Originally Posted by Moody46CC View Post
I am leaning with the group which feels IPs just got too pricey. There are lots around; easy to tell because they kept their design/shape over the years. Like Volvos. And there are lots around as observers have noted, and their owners, for the most part, kept them in very good shape. That meant a good used market, and over the years, I've noted, you could find a good one of their many models, 4-5 years old, at 60% of new cost or thereabouts. Hard to resist.

I have in front of me the sales brochure for IP for the 2010 Annapolis Sailboat show. Cost of a new IP 465 was $659K; a 485 $769K. Unfortunately, this price was barely commissioned and did not include the following items that most owners did put on to judge from looking at used IP advertisements. I'm going to list the "extras" for the IP 485 only. The smaller boats charged a little less for these items: GENSET $24950; Elec winches $14950; elec windlass $12950; bowthruster $8995. Instruments were included but not a chart plotter nor radar. You're looking at a bit north of $800K, and the prices did not go down in the last 6 years.

Perhaps someone with accurate price data can compare these to an HR46 or HR 48; Hylas 49; and I know the Oyster 475 or so is over $1M.
I'm pretty sure the mark up on the other items is similarly high but since I only have experience pricing and installing a windlass I will comment on that.

When I decided to install a windlass my first step was to look for a new windlass. Since my boat is 20,000+lbs loaded it needed to be robust. So anything strong enough for my situation was between $2.5K and $3.5K, give or take, with pro-installation by the authorized dealer at another $2-3K. After realizing that a 35 year old boat getting a new windlass installed by auth. dealer is a big money losing proposition I opted for a used very robust Nilssen for $600 and my marine pro buddy helped me to install it in 2 half days worth of work (1/2 day for epoxying G10 under the deck, etc) and 2nd 1/2 day for the actual windlass installation, testing, etc. but even if I had to pay a "boat yard guy" say $40-50/hr, altogether the labor would've cost me $300-400 total (my buddy did not have a boat at the time and I compensated his time by unlimited use of my boat whenever he wanted to).

Now how can IP justify charging $13K for $5-6K max worth of products and labor? (not to mention that they probably don't pay their labor $40-50/hr nor do they pay retail for windlasses so the real cost to them is probably $2K, may be $2.5-3K max but I'll assume the most expensive case scenario for them) Is this their usual mark up? In that case my marine pro buddy was right when he pronounced that their new IP 38 quality did not reflect it's boat show price. From that revelation to bankruptcy is but a very short step.
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