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Old 06-03-2016, 11:52   #346
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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Originally Posted by exMaggieDrum View Post
...
Long story short, I don't believe the there isn't a market segment for the exact type of boat that IP makes. They may have competition by a handful of other builders and may not market well and may be overpriced but there is a valid segment there. And it isn't met by Catalinas and Hunters. Apples to oranges.
Yes, there are a market segment for bluewater or voyage boast and many brands make them competing with IP (today the boat market is a global one).

The question is if on that market a brand, that basically has not modernized their designs on the last 30 years, not integrating new developments and yacht design evolution, can still be competitive selling those old designs.

Almost all brands that have done the same as IP has already being gone down to non existence, even if on Internet they seem to have a lot of supporters, that fail to materialize on the real world, buying boats.... and selling boats is what the market is about.

If the IP are viable as boats with that design, we will certainly see someone buying the company and continue making them. If not they would be gone. Time will tell for sure.
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Old 06-03-2016, 11:54   #347
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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Originally Posted by Lizzy Belle View Post
I haven't been following this thread anymore, but have kept an eye out for any news from IPY. So far, still no statement of any kind? Or did I miss it?
I've set up a news alert for them, and have seen nothing.
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Old 06-03-2016, 12:33   #348
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Oyster, Hallberg Rassey and Discovery all sell yachts costing three times as much to the same market of cruising couples and families that Island Packet targeted.
...
That one I don't get it unless I am misunderstanding what you are saying:

An Island Packet 485 cost US$ 869,95, an Halber Rassy 48MKII costs about the same and an Aluminum Allures 52 a bit less. I guess that was the problem with IP. I am not imaging many preferring an IP 485 to those boats.

The same is valid for smaller IP regarding price and competition on the same market.
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Old 06-03-2016, 13:07   #349
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

I don't get it either. I looked quite closely at a new HR42 before I bought my Cat. The expense was at least comparable to other monos, there were a few production manufacturing things for the $ that I wasn't that fond of though.... as there were with Moody's I looked at too.
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Old 06-03-2016, 13:21   #350
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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Originally Posted by ka4wja View Post
I won't comment on the "too heavy" / "sluggish performance" aspects, as I've not sailed an IP...
But, I have been on them, both at boat shows and at anchor, and I can tell you that I also thought "overpriced"! (and NOT as good a Catalina!)


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Old 06-03-2016, 13:24   #351
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
This is my theory, everybody has one, right? I base this on just my beliefs, not any real knowledge of the boating industry or anything else

IP is sort of a niche boat, and they really didn't evolve, they tried, they built sort of a Cat, but built it apparently like they did their mono's, so I don't think it worked well.
They tried a foray into the power world, but again built it like the mono sailboat, which meant price wise it was up there with well known, respected well established marques, and that didn't work, as in the power world, they aren't well known, established and respected.
They lost money on each of these attempts, and began to focus on big, expensive boats.
So the fewer and fewer boats they sold, drove manufacturing numbers down, but the fixed costs of course remain the same, so the fewer you build, the more expensive each one is, so to break even, price has to go up. Pretty soon they priced themselves out of the market.
I am not sure what they are supposed to evolve into other than an evolution of Southeast cruising boats.

I still believe they made a great product with a strong following until Catalina and Marlow-Hunter started producing a higher quality product for less. Nick Hake's 46 is a total evolution, but there are not a whole lot of those built (I have yet to see one in the wild), much less the commonality of the smaller boats except the 25's and 26's.

You can't walk a dock in the Gulf and East Coast without running into an Island Packet.

Plain and simple, 20 years ago an upper middle class family could afford $150K for a new boat. The same boat is selling for $400K new. Salaries have not increased at that percentage and the difference between the upper 1% and those who can only afford a 30 year old 30 footer has increased drastically. And those of us who thought we might be in a position now are still making up for that huge chunk the stock market took from our retirements much less the real estate market that many used to be able to sell the home and use that as a partial retirement.

It is really no surprise if you sit back and think about it.

The small boat market dried up a number of years ago. These are the people who buy in their 30's and move up towards retirement.
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Old 06-03-2016, 13:36   #352
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
That one I don't get it unless I am misunderstanding what you are saying:

An Island Packet 485 cost US$ 869,95, an Halber Rassy 48MKII costs about the same and an Aluminum Allures 52 a bit less. I guess that was the problem with IP. I am not imaging many preferring an IP 485 to those boats.

The same is valid for smaller IP regarding price and competition on the same market.
I have to agree with you. They built larger boats and priced them in the market with builders of larger custom yachts and they can't win a side by side.

The only advantage they had in that segment was bank financing as underwriters are idiots looking at current trends and basing on past experience with the brand, so they were willing to loan higher dollar amounts on an IP over a custom or semi-custom.
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Old 06-03-2016, 15:02   #353
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
No one I know off is using chopper guns. That seems to be a failed experience. Here you can see how Bavaria are done with big mats of fiber (3.18) hand glassed. They also use a structural grid not very different (maybe bigger) than the one on Catalina (3.35).
That's an interesting video. The amount of CNC automation is pretty impressive. How does this compare to say how Catalina builds their yachts today? I've not toured their facility so I have no idea, but am working to schedule a tour this summer.

I also would have liked to tour the island packet facility, but of course now no one will respond to my inquiries to get a tour there.

- Zeb
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Old 06-03-2016, 15:16   #354
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Yes, there are a market segment for bluewater or voyage boast and many brands make them competing with IP (today the boat market is a global one).

The question is if on that market a brand, that basically has not modernized their designs on the last 30 years, not integrating new developments and yacht design evolution, can still be competitive selling those old designs.

Almost all brands that have done the same as IP has already being gone down to non existence, even if on Internet they seem to have a lot of supporters, that fail to materialize on the real world, buying boats.... and selling boats is what the market is about.

If the IP are viable as boats with that design, we will certainly see someone buying the company and continue making them. If not they would be gone. Time will tell for sure.
Polux, I would have to agree with you provided the new designs were actually desirable improvements rather than just new for marketing and flash. Or cheaper materials or shoddier construction. I'm not saying there aren't any but often times the tried and true is far better than the new and "improved". Price points do matter though - very much. I personally wouldn't buy some of the new designs for any amount of money.
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Old 06-03-2016, 15:28   #355
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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Originally Posted by tdoster View Post
I am not sure what they are supposed to evolve into other than an evolution of Southeast cruising boats.

I still believe they made a great product with a strong following until Catalina and Marlow-Hunter started producing a higher quality product for less. Nick Hake's 46 is a total evolution, but there are not a whole lot of those built (I have yet to see one in the wild), much less the commonality of the smaller boats except the 25's and 26's.

You can't walk a dock in the Gulf and East Coast without running into an Island Packet.

Plain and simple, 20 years ago an upper middle class family could afford $150K for a new boat. The same boat is selling for $400K new. Salaries have not increased at that percentage and the difference between the upper 1% and those who can only afford a 30 year old 30 footer has increased drastically. And those of us who thought we might be in a position now are still making up for that huge chunk the stock market took from our retirements much less the real estate market that many used to be able to sell the home and use that as a partial retirement.

It is really no surprise if you sit back and think about it.

The small boat market dried up a number of years ago. These are the people who buy in their 30's and move up towards retirement.
This seems to make a lot of sense. Yet real estate is super strong again already , in the PNW anyway. Higher than before the crash by far. I guess that takes $ away from recreation also.
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Old 06-03-2016, 16:11   #356
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Does anyone know if Tayana, Outbound or Hylas is able to sell any yachts in today's market? Similar ocean going boats, built in Asia, priced someplace in the middle just above Island Packet.
Outbound sold out 2015 production for the 46 early last year. From I've heard 2016 production for the 46 is either sold out or close already. They've continued to do do very well. Granted they're scaled for smaller (10-12 boats/year) production, but still they're fitting their own business model. There's been enough demand that Outbound is introducing an aft cockpit version of the 52 that's basically a scaled up version of the 46 (using Kernan's hull design from the center cockpit 52 which hasn't sold well at all). I've also bee told Hylas continues to sell boats to meet their production business model.

I've sailed a few IPs and certainly crawled all over and worked on a few more, and have some real experience with the Outbound 46. My personal opinion is that an Outbound 46 is not very comparable to a similar size IP (a 440 for example). First off, the Outbound is a higher performance boat. Those I know who've crossed the Pacific in an Outbound have reported it's one of the faster cruising boats its size while still being very comfortable in rough conditions. This makes sense - the underbody of the Outbound is much lower drag than an IP, so it will accelerate more quickly in light air and can probably get a little more wave boost in big following seas. Sailing locally, the Outbound is a surprisingly good light air performer (including upwind) for a heavy displacement cruising boat, and far better than the IPs I've sailed. I would also guess the Outbound interior appeals more to people than the interior of similar IPs. Both have their pluses and minuses IMO, but the Outbound is more conventional while also giving you a nice lazarette/work area aft. On the IP485 I've never figured out where you're supposed to sleep when healed over, unless that boat just never heals... In my personal opinion I think the Oubound is built more strongly, from the oversized hardware to personally witnessing cutouts of the layup in e.g. the aft bulkhead. I think IP is a cut above the big French builders, but nothing spectacular. And the Outbound is actually cheaper for its length than a similar IP.

The fact that boats like Outbound (and HR, Oyster, Amel, Malo, the French aluminum builders, etc.) are continuing to sell says there's a market. The difference I see with IP is that all of those other boats offer a more modern look, more modern layout, and are not full keel boats. Most are also now solent rigs. That also says IP could still be rolling along if they were willing to progress with the market rather than basically offering the same product over and over again.
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Old 07-03-2016, 05:12   #357
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

I read most of this thread and found it quite disappointing. The dominant theme was an attack on Island Packets and, by inference, their owners. I saw this even from commentators I have read and respected for years. This is a fairly consistent theme on this Forum and one of the reasons why I rarely comment. I do not understand why this is or why the moderators tolerate it. Human nature I guess.

Every boat design is, necessarily, a compendium of compromises which lead to a craft designed for a specific purpose. Owners purchase a boat that meets their needs and goals. When I was in the process of convincing my wife that the cruising life would be fun, a wise older British couple said there were two important things to remember. Do not terrify your wife and do not bore her. My wife added, it can't be camping.

Now, years later we spend 4-5 months of the year on our IP 420, quite happily. I grew up racing small vessels and later crewing for coastal racers. I love speed as much as anybody and live by the adage that, if there are two boats in sight going in the same general direction, there is a race. The 420 does not go upwind well, but if steered small builds and holds speed even in lighter airs. From 15 to 25 knots, she sails fast for her water line and wetted surface. Above 25 knots she keeps going. It was a long learning curve, but I do enjoy getting the most out of her. She is not a motorsailer by any stretch of the imagination. When I was young I enjoyed getting the most out of my Bugeye Sprite as much as I did my father's BMW. The skills were the same. Only the speed differed.

Most important for a sailor that goes offshore with family and friends she is very, very seaworthy. I have been out in near gales and gales hundreds of miles offshore and never felt the boat challenged. And one blessing of that full keel, she heaves to wonderfully.

I suspect that there is a small class of owners looking for the design compromises in the Packets. In addition, I would agree that, with the new quite pricy larger hulls, IP designed themselves out of their original market and began to compete with a class of boats that offered more for the money. But, when I was boat hunting, a used 420 with good sails offered the most for my budget and I have never regretted it.

Finally, she is well built. The evidence? I find, knock on wood, that I spend a lot less time at the dock with repairs than many/most of my cruising friends.

Please remember that most of us love our boats and purchased them for specific reasons. When you insult a boat, you insult its owner. A little civility goes a long way and might even lead to more participation on this forum.
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Old 07-03-2016, 05:55   #358
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

I agree with the previous poster.

I own a 485, after years of racing boats and racing dinghies.

I purchased the 485 for a purpose from a short list of the usual suspects. I wanted as much volume as possible, but with the best sea keeping qualities I could find, huge amounts of storage, huge amounts of fuel and water and an easily handled rig. I want to crusie in comfort and I want to take a few toys. Until you cruise you dont realise the amount of water you get through, the amount of power you use and the amount fo fuel it is good to have (I know you will say because IP's dont go very fast ). All of those things the 485 gives me, and, actually the performance is not that bad either. With time to cruise you want to go down hill and you want the boat to look after itself and that is exactly what IPs do very well. She will truck along in a F6 and much more with the wind on the beam all day long giving a very comfortable and gentle ride with the minimium of fuss.

As to quality, well it seems to me with just about every boat so many of the parts come out of a limited parts bin so some of the components are dreadful whatever boat they are fitted to. However, where it counts, IP has always fitted pretty good equipment, and the actual build quality is second to none, and heavily over engineered. You only need to attempt to fit some ducting and you will be horrified or gratifed as to the thickness and strength of the build.

Of course this all adds substantially to the cost. Understandably the new market for a 485 is small, and almost certainly even smaller in Europe. Perhaps the market place can only support a diminishing number of builders, able and willing to build to this "quality". My interior is teak, much of it solid teak. I hate to even imagine having purchased some teak recently, just the cost of the interior wood.

So I would argue whether it is an IP or Oyster or HR, builders like these are still needed. They build boats to really go places. Boats that will look after you and look after themselves, but perhaps more importantly will enable you to cruise in comfort. The world is a poorer place if there are fewer builders able to offer this alternative, as much as I am very happy to see the volume manufacturers prosper as well.

I hope IP survives, but if it doesnt, buy a good IP now, I suspect to the extent any boat is able to hold its value, an IP will do just fine, and will serve you well for very many years to come.
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Old 07-03-2016, 06:06   #359
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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Please remember that most of us love our boats and purchased them for specific reasons. When you insult a boat, you insult its owner.


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Old 07-03-2016, 06:45   #360
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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I read most of this thread and found it quite disappointing. The dominant theme was an attack on Island Packets and, by inference, their owners. I saw this even from commentators I have read and respected for years. This is a fairly consistent theme on this Forum and one of the reasons why I rarely comment.

I guess it's an internet phenomena, being on the internet people are anonymous and can act as they please, as long as they stay within the be nice guidelines, it has to be allowed as a part of self expression I guess.
But people will bash a Hunter like they think they sink at the dock, and the same for other brands, to say nothing of the multi vs single hull crowd, and it is almost always because they want to be in the group, want to be accepted.
IP is perceived as being down right now, and whats more fun than kicking a man when he's down?
Piling on is the phenomena when you get someone who posts something like *** anchor sucks, then you get one or two to post, yeah I've noticed that too, then most wanting be in the "popular crowd" or I guess the term now is be social, all jump in and agree, usually with no knowledge themselves, they are just parrots.

But, you notice in all of these type of threads, that the people who apparently are really out there cruising, have real experience, have crossed Oceans, are doing so now, make their living repairing, designing, building boats, are almost always absent.

Those are the ones I have learned to pay attention to, those are the ones I learn from.
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