Island Packet Closing doors

[DDabs]

I really hate the analogy of comparing boats to cars. It NEVER works, so why use that as an analogy? You can't compare old boats to old cars.

[Robin3]

Originally Posted by chadc

IP isn't closing. I won the lottery last week and I am currently purchasing the company and all new IP yachts will have an image of me on the main.

You are the real Donald Trump and I claim my $5 prize!

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Lizzy Belle

Very true, but it also doesn't mean it's the end of IPY.
Could be, might be, but there are other possibilities as well.

As I posted before; this topic is like having a funeral while the patient is still in the ICU. No matter how minimal his chances are, it's still a bit early for a funeral

The problem is letting all the chatter go on without correcting it is like pulling the plug on a guy in intensive care. Yeah, he might survive but odds just got a lot lower.

IP clearly has isues of some sort and chatter like this will scare away a lot of folks who were seriously considering thier boats.

There may very well be legal/contractual issues stopping them from responding but if there is someone out there who wants to make a go of it with the IP brand, they need to get those sorted out quickly and get word out quickly that IP isn't gone and what is going on. Every day the chatter goes on, the less likely IP is to survive.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by Polux

Those facts give clear evidence of what most people want to sail for the best price and also regarding what is the best deal for the charter company regarding desirability and maintenance costs. Not old quality boats but new cheaper ones.

You keep either deliberately or inadvertently missing what I am saying and actually are repeating some of my arguments.

Yes, of course the charter industry wants cheaper and easier to maintain boat for the use it is expected to have - short island hopping jaunts, mostly in very good weather, with crew of often no more than 1 or 2 competent sailors with the rest comprised of family, kids, friends, etc. These boats are not expected to do any meaningful ocean passages, let alone ocean crossings, nor are they built for such. Notice the absence of such indispensable bluewater characteristics as handholds, sea berths, large tankage, small cockpits with robust drainage, etc, etc.

Can they be taken offshore for months at a time? Sure, just as I can take an unmodified mass production Buick to the unpaved desert for unspecified number of months and hope for the best while I'm there. Would I want to voluntarily? That's another question.

If these charter boats happen to survive harsh conditions for more than 1 or 2 days it is more testimony of their crew or general toughness of today's composites than to their build quality or their maker's intent. Their best features are such as to make them excellent and unrivaled marina/dock queens and show pieces at the next boat show to entice a new round of happy 1-2 week charterers. And that job they do excellently being in tune with the most recent wants and needs of the chartering public.

IP on the other hand (whether or not it survives) was not doing what it had set to accomplish i.e. to provide a tough offshore capable boat at the quality, looks and price it's potential customers can find acceptable. According to testimony of many posters here they failed in at least 2 of these categories and according to my marine pro friends - in all 3. Hopefully if they are to come out of this and are able to save their name, the new owners/managers will be able to catch up in these categories enough to compete with the rest of mid range price crowd. But the demographics and statistics are not with them unfortunately. The only significant and steady buyers today are sailing clubs and charterers and IP's models at least so far do not appeal to either. And without these more steady and numerous orders I don't think any of today's builder can survive on an odd buyer here and there, even if they catch a few at each boat show. IMO their only chance to survive in the mid or upper end of the price range is to become "an American Swan" or a "Hinckley alternative" but do they have the time and the $$ to accomplish this? We will learn soon enough.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

You keep either deliberately or inadvertently missing what I am saying and actually are repeating some of my arguments.

Yes, of course the charter industry wants cheaper and easier to maintain boat for the use it is expected to have - short island hopping jaunts, mostly in very good weather, with crew of often no more than 1 or 2 competent sailors with the rest comprised of family, kids, friends, etc. These boats are not expected to do any meaningful ocean passages, let alone ocean crossings, nor are they built for such. Notice the absence of such indispensable bluewater characteristics as handholds, sea berths, large tankage, small cockpits with robust drainage, etc, etc.

Can they be taken offshore for months at a time? Sure, just as I can take an unmodified mass production Buick to the unpaved desert for unspecified number of months and hope for the best while I'm there. Would I want to voluntarily? That's another question.

If these charter boats happen to survive harsh conditions for more than 1 or 2 days it is more testimony of their crew or general toughness of today's composites than to their build quality or their maker's intent. Their best features are such as to make them excellent and unrivaled marina/dock queens and show pieces at the next boat show to entice a new round of happy 1-2 week charterers. And that job they do excellently being in tune with the most recent wants and needs of the chartering public.

IP on the other hand (whether or not it survives) was not doing what it had set to accomplish i.e. to provide a tough offshore capable boat at the quality, looks and price it's potential customers can find acceptable. According to testimony of many posters here they failed in at least 2 of these categories and according to my marine pro friends - in all 3. Hopefully if they are to come out of this and are able to save their name, the new owners/managers will be able to catch up in these categories enough to compete with the rest of mid range price crowd. But the demographics and statistics are not with them unfortunately. The only significant and steady buyers today are sailing clubs and charterers and IP's models at least so far do not appeal to either. And without these more steady and numerous orders I don't think any of today's builder can survive on an odd buyer here and there, even if they catch a few at each boat show. IMO their only chance to survive in the mid or upper end of the price range is to become "an American Swan" or a "Hinckley alternative" but do they have the time and the $$ to accomplish this? We will learn soon enough.

I maintain a charter fleet, mostly new Bavaria's, a few Catalina's and the like. I've been trying to talk the owner into an IP. For the charterers who go out for a couple weeks in the islands instead of daysailors. My main reasoning is the amounts he spends on bottom repairs on lightly built fin keeled boats. The charter crowd grounds often, and these can be unforgiving waters for that habit. A boat that can actually take a beating would save him a lot of doss over the boats that need major repairs every time they touch bottom. It's no wonder insurance companies HATE charter fleets. They're running up the cost for the rest of us.

[Eder]

No water? No problem.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

The problem is letting all the chatter go on without correcting it is like pulling the plug on a guy in intensive care. Yeah, he might survive but odds just got a lot lower.

IP clearly has isues of some sort and chatter like this will scare away a lot of folks who were seriously considering thier boats.

And for good reason. Investing in a new IP includes a big expectation of warranty, service and continuity of the builder.

[ontherocks83]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

You keep either deliberately or inadvertently missing what I am saying and actually are repeating some of my arguments.

Get used to it, he does it a lot.

[SVNeko]

Originally Posted by Eder

No water? No problem.

I dunno, looks like a rocky place.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

....
There may very well be legal/contractual issues stopping them from responding but if there is someone out there who wants to make a go of it with the IP brand, they need to get those sorted out quickly and get word out quickly that IP isn't gone and what is going on. Every day the chatter goes on, the less likely IP is to survive.

Yes, after an eviction paper was made public if they will continue in business, even if under other ownership, it make no sense not coming public with a statement explaining the situation.

The only reason I can see for that not have happened is because an agreement was not yet reached regarding the survival of the company. That does not mean that it is not going to happen.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

You keep either deliberately or inadvertently missing what I am saying and actually are repeating some of my arguments.

Yes, of course the charter industry wants cheaper and easier to maintain boat for the use it is expected to have - short island hopping jaunts, mostly in very good weather, with crew of often no more than 1 or 2 competent sailors with the rest comprised of family, kids, friends, etc. These boats are not expected to do any meaningful ocean passages, let alone ocean crossings, nor are they built for such. Notice the absence of such indispensable bluewater characteristics as handholds, sea berths, large tankage, small cockpits with robust drainage, etc, etc.

Can they be taken offshore for months at a time? Sure, just as I can take an unmodified mass production Buick to the unpaved desert for unspecified number of months and hope for the best while I'm there. Would I want to voluntarily? That's another question.

If these charter boats happen to survive harsh conditions for more than 1 or 2 days it is more testimony of their crew or general toughness of today's composites than to their build quality or their maker's intent. Their best features are such as to make them excellent and unrivaled marina/dock queens and show pieces at the next boat show to entice a new round of happy 1-2 week charterers. And that job they do excellently being in tune with the most recent wants and needs of the chartering public.

IP on the other hand (whether or not it survives) was not doing what it had set to accomplish i.e. to provide a tough offshore capable boat at the quality, looks and price it's potential customers can find acceptable. According to testimony of many posters here they failed in at least 2 of these categories and according to my marine pro friends - in all 3. ....

If they fail in all three, as your marine pro friends say regarding IP, including being a tough offshore capable boat, I cannot see the difference.

Anyway I was not talking about new boats versus new boats but about old boats versus new modern mass production boats and as it is well know old IP has problems namely in what referees chain-plates, not all boats are maintained in pristine condition regarding rigging and so on.

And I was talking about desirability and price, the thing most cruisers want for the right price, a new mass production boat with sparkling performance or an old boat that takes much time and money to put in a good seaworthiness condition and that was about that I have refereed charter preferences and new boats versus old quality ones.

Not all charter boats are the same, some are good offshore boats, it depends of the size and model. If you look at the ones that make the Atlantic loop on the ARC, if I am not mistaken, there was an IP versus many dozens or even close to an hundred of cheap mass production boats, almost all of them very recent boats.

Certainly, charter boats are not equipped for extensive offshore sailing, why should they be if they are not used for that? All you have to do is to equip the boat for that. Many ex charter boats have made circumnavigations and I remember a Bavaria that have even made it by the Northwest passage. The water tankage was nothing to do with that. Today most that do that use an water maker and the tankage the boats use for cruising is enough to cross oceans.

Somebody had said that car examples are not good for boats and I agree that sometimes don't make any sense as the comparison you make between a road car and a desert one. The sea has no roads.

You say you would not want to go on a mass production boat, the ones that are used for charter, crossing an ocean, but would prefer to do it on an old designed blue water boat.

You are entitled to do what you want but that is not the point, but what most sailors find more desirable. To do that on a a good old boat or an almost new modern mass production boat, one suited for that. The answer is given by numbers, regarding those that can afford new boats and it is clear.

And I am not even saying that a solution is better than other, different sailors would go for one boat or another, just saying that most (and by large) chose to have a new or recent production boat to do that if the other option is an old boat, being it a quality one or not.

[Lizzy Belle]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

There may very well be legal/contractual issues stopping them from responding but if there is someone out there who wants to make a go of it with the IP brand, they need to get those sorted out quickly and get word out quickly that IP isn't gone and what is going on. Every day the chatter goes on, the less likely IP is to survive.

Agreed! I was expecting them to at least issue a statement March 1st, but it's awfully quiet ...

Whatever is going on, they really do need to issue a statement soon, methinks. Even if they don't have every t crossed and every i dotted yet ...

[a64pilot]

The whole chain plate thing amounts to a one time turn key cost of $10,000, then it's done forever, or at least more than 30 years, which for me is forever as I won't be here then , and how many boats last more than 60 years?
If you did it yourself I would assume you can save at least half that cost, more I'm sure.

Much to do about nothing


You don't NEED build quality and that "old fashioned, before we had modern weather forecasting design" until it hits the fan, hopefully I will never be in that storm where it hits the fan, but if I ever am, I'd rather be in my IP than most Charter type boats.

Your mileage may vary of course

I think we are making too much of this if IP goes under thing, so what if they do or did? I'll miss them as I hate to see any US builder go under, too many jobs lost etc., but it's not the end of the world, says nothing really about the boat really, who knows what the problem is or was?

[Island Time O25]

Polux,

Aesthetics aside, I base some of my preferences on the opinions of the marine pros with many decades of extensive experience, etc. One is currently a maintenance manager for a sailing club with a large inventory, about 100 boats, a good portion of them new or newish Bavarias, Hanses, Beneteaus etc and many older Hunters, Beneteaus, Catalinas and Odays. That particular gentleman says that for every issue on an older boat there are 2-3 or more issues on the practically new one. Granted, some of them relate to the latest generation diesels which loaded with electronics tend to suffer more as a result but the vast majority of issues according to him stem from either poor design or poor execution. On a design side for example he cites a 6 or 9 gal holding tank on a 42 ft new Hanse. My reaction of course was - "what's the big deal to install 20-25gal tank?" He said - can't do, without major structural modification to the bulkheads, etc. He says there is just no room there for anything larger than 9 gal. You tell me how in today's ecologically conscious times a 42ft boat leaves EU factory with a 6-9gal holding tank which cannot be easily expanded.

[Eder]

Originally Posted by SVNeko

I dunno, looks like a rocky place.

Naw...scuffed a bit of bottom paint off is all, prop and rudder very well protected...got to check my zincs and grease the Maxprop without getting my hair wet.