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Old 29-02-2016, 10:45   #181
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
Ken,

Just what would be, in your opinion, that "...a product that people want to buy..."? General characteristics would be a good start. Thanks.

Down to four and a half weeks, although that pesky February 29th added a day!
A Pacific Seacraft is something many want to buy. Look at their after market retail prices and scarcity.
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Old 29-02-2016, 10:53   #182
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

FWI, Hinckley has noted that most well heeled customers nowadays want fast boats, lots of entertaining room, and ease of use. There is also a definitive shift to motor yachts rather than sailing yachts, except for the uber wealthy that want a racing boat to sponsor, not necessarily to sail. And those folks go to exclusive builders like Hodgson Yachts, not the mass producers.

Another demographic shift is the replacement of European derived cultures and folks with Asian and Latino cultures in America, most of whom do not look on sailing with the same enthusiasm. Quite likely, pleasure sailing outside of the collegiate crowd, is likely to go the way of sulky racing, once popular over much of the northeast.
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Old 29-02-2016, 11:01   #183
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Sad if they close their doors, every one I've ground into has been a very well built boat. But I won't be sad if I have to match that color less often, their stock gel color is awful and a real pain to match. I heard they designed it to reduce sea sickness. It makes me feel sick at the dock!
I AGREE!
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Old 29-02-2016, 11:02   #184
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

It's just money at the heart of IPs' problems.
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Old 29-02-2016, 11:04   #185
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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Originally Posted by Igotnuthin View Post
I AGREE!
What, you dont like beige? Beige hull, topsides, even down below. Beige is the color of carpets, drapes maybe, even dog poop; but a boat?
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Old 29-02-2016, 11:27   #186
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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Originally Posted by TacomaSailor View Post
A friend was a salesman for an IP brokerage and a long distance cruiser in a 42' Island Packet. He had serious experience as both a salesman and cruiser.

Several years ago we spent a week on his boat cruising about SoCal and Mexico and talked a lot about the future of Island Packet. He was disturbed and distressed that the IP management and marketing folks were so far out of touch with the modern market and cruising community. He felt that IP owner/managers were ignoring the hard won advice of folks like him who spent 40-hours a week trying to sell the beautiful, but old and slow, antiquated IP boats.

He was most disturbed that the IP response was the BlueJacket line of boats. He felt that boat was the death knell of the company and an terrible demonstration of how mis-informed IP was about the modern cruiser / high end boater buyer.
...
Yes I agree with that. Basically all Island Packets went along with the hull line design for the second produced boat, the 29ft, back in 1981, 35 years ago. The design was already outdated at that time and become more and more outdated with the passing years.

When I saw them making the Blue jacket I thought they were finally modernizing their line but it was not making sense because even if Bluejacket had a modern and efficient hull and keel it appealed to a market completely different from the one of the IP. It would appeal for a conservative sector of that market but even so a completely different market than the IP one.

While the Bluejacket is a conservative offshore performance cruiser, the IP is a kind of dated voyage boat. No way clients from IP would be interested in the Bluejacket, it is not the same market.

Another problem with the IP is that the market to whom it was pointed to is a very small one and one that become even smaller. IP, like your friend said, needed desperately a new design that, without alienating their traditional clients, was appealing to a broader market.

I believe the real problem with IP was its own creator. He had an opinion regarding the type of boat he saw fit for cruising extensively, designed the boats and stick to his ideas (without modernizing them) even when it was clear that his ideas regarding the ideal type of boat were far off from the ideas most cruisers had regarding the boat they want for that type of cruising.

That's a capital sin and no yacht shipyard will survive producing basically for 35 years the same design, at least not a medium sized one. To be honest I was quite surprised to see IP surviving so long. If they were selling boats in Europe they would be long gone.
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Old 29-02-2016, 11:42   #187
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
Yes, I especially like the pressboard cabinet doors with the overlays, the saildrive, the wet core hulls, the plastic seacocks and the keels that fall off. No wonder they are so loved!
If they were so loved they would not have bankrupted. Plenty of expensive boats offering what IP offers (in a more efficient way) and going well. I would say those are the ones that are loved by most, not the ones that go down.
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Old 29-02-2016, 11:46   #188
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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Originally Posted by reed1v View Post
A Pacific Seacraft is something many want to buy. Look at their after market retail prices and scarcity.
Though I am a huge fan of the boat as well as Bill Crealock both as a designer and person, Pacific Seacraft is running on par with the other builders in the US. The Bob Perry designed South Sea 61 is a really cool design, but I don't know they are falling off the shelf with orders.

As a percentage of boats on the market to total built, I would say they are on par with Island Packet as well as resale value, albeit some variances with PS early boats. I would also say the build quality was a little higher, lending to the argument of adequately built vs over built. I also believe the two designs are purpose built. Crealock designed and PS over built a true blue water design whereas Bob Johnson designed and built a boat in traditional West Coast Florida style and conditions that was at home in the light waters of the Gulf, ICW and Caribbean and truly blue water capable.

But keep in mind that Pacific Seacraft went under at a time when Island Packet was doing well and the economy didn't hit the consumer deeply until the crash of 2008. That being said, father and son Brodie have been able to save the company and brand nicely.

There are several arguments on the initial downfall of Pacific Seacraft from over regulation in CA to trying to save the Ericson brand from total demise, but regardless, they fell first, but were saved.

There are many more like stories with not so happy endings. Very few will question the quality of Valiant Yachts except for a bad gel run caused by regulation changes. Most from the West Coast or Florida, with Valiant and Cape Dory as the notable exceptions.

Only to argue with your points that the IP has it's place in the market, but the commonality is US and Canadian Boat Builders unable to compete in the marketplace with the ancillary costs rising so fast, including regulation, in my opinion.
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Old 29-02-2016, 11:46   #189
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
Surely, you just?

My 39 footer has 13 opening hatches.
5 being full size lewmar matches in the deck, forward opening to scoop in air.

In the tropics at the moment I only have 2 open, 1 in the forward cabin and 1 in the saloon. So are quite ventilation is being done by 2/13ths...
A new Beneteau 35 at the boatshow had, if I remember correctly, 4 ports, 2 hatches and a lot of "glass". It may be that the air flows better through it than my old lead mine, and I'd love to be wrong, but there seemed to be very little opening realestate there. Beyond that i'd take the sailing qualities of the beneteau any day over my old boat...........but I don't want the payments!!
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Old 29-02-2016, 12:11   #190
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
Ken,

Just what would be, in your opinion, that "...a product that people want to buy..."? General characteristics would be a good start. Thanks.

Down to four and a half weeks, although that pesky February 29th added a day!
Just head down to the boat show and go over to the docks where the vast majority of people are hanging out. Beneteau, Jenneau, Lagoon, Leopard, Hanse are a few which Come to mind, then look at the features these boats offer. Basically the opposite of what Hunter, Morris, Ip, Blue Jacket, Gemini etc. have to offer. Start by looking at the transom design, then move forward an see how most of the Euro designs flow into the saloon. No climbing over humps and bumps or bashing your knees on stuff. They are designed for entertainment both dockside and at an anchorage.

It's actually quite simple... Look at the boats that are selling.
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Old 29-02-2016, 12:15   #191
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
Speed is defined by the waterline of the boat... light or heavy, ugly or a racing sled.
Sure you can get quicker acceleration on a lighter boat.
It is not only acceleration but mostly the amount of wind that brings the boat close to hull speed or hull speed, that is important for the overall performance of the sailboat. A huge difference between light and heavy boats in what regards that.

Also the waterline, that is much bigger on modern designed boats compared with old designs of the same length, is not that relevant and certainly no relevant at all (regarding hull speed) for racing sleds downwind.

Not needed to consider a race boat, even many cruiser-racers or performance cruisers can go at practically 1.5 times their hull speed, given considerable winds and certainly faster than hull speed in medium winds.

Even light main market cruisers like Jeanneau or Bavaria can go with some ease faster than hull speed downwind, not a lot faster, on most occasions but 1 to 2k faster is usual with a decent wind, like the one you can get on the trade winds....and 2k faster on the long run are days on a passage.

Some use for lighter cruising boats the term semi-displacement to differentiate them from heavy cruisers, that are displacement boats and limited to hull speed.
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Old 29-02-2016, 12:17   #192
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Sad if they close their doors, every one I've ground into has been a very well built boat. But I won't be sad if I have to match that color less often, their stock gel color is awful and a real pain to match. I heard they designed it to reduce sea sickness. It makes me feel sick at the dock!
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Originally Posted by morven55 View Post
I can see the logic in that...but that also leaves fewer choices for people that prefer the simplicity of carburetors? I just hate to see the elimination of rugged "old fashioned" types of cruising boats in favor of more "modern" design philosophies...
OMG,What I wouldn't give to have a car with a carburator, NO power windows and doorlocks! Everything is WAY too complicated now!
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Old 29-02-2016, 12:18   #193
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Yes I agree with that. Basically all Island Packets went along with the hull line design for the second produced boat, the 29ft, back in 1981, 35 years ago. The design was already outdated at that time and become more and more outdated with the passing years.

When I saw them making the Blue jacket I thought they were finally modernizing their line but it was not making sense because even if Bluejacket had a modern and efficient hull and keel it appealed to a market completely different from the one of the IP. It would appeal for a conservative sector of that market but even so a completely different market than the IP one.

While the Bluejacket is a conservative offshore performance cruiser, the IP is a kind of dated voyage boat. No way clients from IP would be interested in the Bluejacket, it is not the same market.

Another problem with the IP is that the market to whom it was pointed to is a very small one and one that become even smaller. IP, like your friend said, needed desperately a new design that, without alienating their traditional clients, was appealing to a broader market.

I believe the real problem with IP was its own creator. He had an opinion regarding the type of boat he saw fit for cruising extensively, designed the boats and stick to his ideas (without modernizing them) even when it was clear that his ideas regarding the ideal type of boat were far off from the ideas most cruisers had regarding the boat they want for that type of cruising.

That's a capital sin and no yacht shipyard will survive producing basically for 35 years the same design, at least not a medium sized one. To be honest I was quite surprised to see IP surviving so long. If they were selling boats in Europe they would be long gone.
Excellent points. But if we look at the history of boat builders, it could be said that a number of them failed after they tried to leave what made the brand...

Cape Dory and IP look a lot similar right now. Before the downfall at Cape Dory, they expanded into the power boat and motorsailor market as did IP. Both companies had/have a very loyal following and many worked their way up from the small boats to the larger models. You could say they saturated their own market eventually, though.

You either turn a lot of hulls and charge less, or fewer hulls and command more, in my opinion with the law of supply and demand. Instead of IP meeting the demand, maybe they should have scaled back a little bit and concentrated on improving the product with fewer hulls.

I still believe IP was on the right track with the SP Cruiser with the direction those with the money are going right now - trawlers. This is what they were all hearing at the boat shows and what they delivered - just didn't quite hit the mark as the next stepping stone for their loyal base as both they and their money age.
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Old 29-02-2016, 12:27   #194
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

It's amazing how much everyone knows about boats they have never stepped foot aboard , much less sailed. Nobody cares about your opinions on what looks good or how fast or slow you think a particular boat is. It's a boat , they all look good. That's why we are all here.


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Old 29-02-2016, 12:29   #195
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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I have a good friend who used to be a leading naval architect/boat builder in a small Baltic country... My friend designed over several dozen of boats, including a few which won boat of the year in their categories at Oslo and Dusseldorf boat shows, and either personally built or supervised the building of well over 300 boats from 12 to 40 feet, so he speaks from extensive experience. ....
You are talking about who? Don't know of any Lithuanian builder (or designer) that had won the boat of the year in any category at Dusseldorf boat show (but I can be mistaken).
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