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Old 29-02-2016, 06:40   #166
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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Great post.

Did I tell you about driving a 1968 Mustang for 3 weeks? Gimme a Korean Rice-Bubble car anytime!
How did it handle compared to your Bene?
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Old 29-02-2016, 07:16   #167
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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It doesn't matter what people can afford. There will always be a large population of people with plenty of money to spend, but a manufacturer needs to make something which will entice them to part with their money. Beneteau, Jeaneau, Hanse, Bavaria, Sunreef, Discovery, Lagoon, Oyster to name just a few... Don't seem to have much trouble finding hundreds of buyers for boats costing much more than an Island Packet.

Attend the next boat show and see where all the buyers are hanging out and shopping.... Hint: It's not at the Hunter, Gemini and Catalina docks/booths where the salespeople look like the Maytag repairman.

I really do hope the domestic industry gets it's act together, but judging by the showing at the boat show last week.... It's not happening.
Going back to my comparison to the fledgling automobile market in the beginning of 20th C, there still would have been plenty of customers to keep a niche market going for Pierce and Arrows, Dusenbergs and Rolls Royces if Henry Ford never showed up to the party. And we realize that the world is significantly different because of him, including our own American economy (the question for better or worse is for another day). Yes, I have no doubt that some individual boat makers will always continue to make money aiming at the 1% among the 1 percenters but I was talking more about the total market transformation from the larger picture POV. And think of the great economic benefit to the country if every middle class person who wants a brand new boat could afford one just as today they all can afford a brand new car or two every few years. And the dynamic of the today's auto market does not push majority of car ownership wannabees into buying 30-40 year old cars just to have a car.

BTW I'm pretty sure that in H. Ford's time the vast majority of economic and market place pundits said that his idea is not doable, a dream, a fantasy, etc, etc.
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Old 29-02-2016, 07:17   #168
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

The only real problem I've got with most euro styled boats (modern designs) is the ventilation, or lack of.

I have an old (40 years) boat, because it fit most of my criteria, price included, however one of the biggest turnoffs for me on a large majority of the new boats (custom or exceptionally high end excluded) is that large and abundant opening ports and hatches seem to have fallen out of favor to climate controls. I'll admit a bright and cool boat at the boat show I inviting, but anchor it and the wind doesn't have a huge chance to pass through. In a tradewu ds anchorage it doesn't take much to ventilate, but everywhere else every little opening does make a difference!


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Old 29-02-2016, 07:23   #169
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

I think IP's general keel design has a lot to do with it's location in Florida. If you sail in Florida you either have run aground or will. Bolt on fin keels are simply not suitable for areas where shoaling is common & running aground must be a determining factor. In addition I think there's a lot to be said for blue water cruising in a boat that tracks like it's on rails.
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Old 29-02-2016, 07:28   #170
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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The only real problem I've got with most euro styled boats (modern designs) is the ventilation, or lack of.
Surely, you just?

My 39 footer has 13 opening hatches.
5 being full size lewmar matches in the deck, forward opening to scoop in air.

In the tropics at the moment I only have 2 open, 1 in the forward cabin and 1 in the saloon. So are quite ventilation is being done by 2/13ths...
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Old 29-02-2016, 07:50   #171
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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Going back to my comparison to the fledgling automobile market in the beginning of 20th C, there still would have been plenty of customers to keep a niche market going for Pierce and Arrows, Dusenbergs and Rolls Royces if Henry Ford never showed up to the party. And we realize that the world is significantly different because of him, including our own American economy (the question for better or worse is for another day). Yes, I have no doubt that some individual boat makers will always continue to make money aiming at the 1% among the 1 percenters but I was talking more about the total market transformation from the larger picture POV. And think of the great economic benefit to the country if every middle class person who wants a brand new boat could afford one just as today they all can afford a brand new car or two every few years. And the dynamic of the today's auto market does not push majority of car ownership wannabees into buying 30-40 year old cars just to have a car.

BTW I'm pretty sure that in H. Ford's time the vast majority of economic and market place pundits said that his idea is not doable, a dream, a fantasy, etc, etc.
So.... Your idea of a socialist utopia would be every middle class working stiff putting around in a $15-$20k Island Packet Peoples boat?

We already have sailboats in the lower price range, but they're not as big..... nobody wants to buy them either.
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Old 29-02-2016, 08:02   #172
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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So.... Your idea of a socialist utopia would be every middle class working stiff putting around in a $15-$20k Island Packet Peoples boat?

We already have sailboats in the lower price range, but they're not as big..... nobody wants to buy them either.
Did you just call Henry Ford a socialist Utopian?

And the reason the smaller mass produced boats are not selling is also due to the skewing of the market against such purchases. Add all the storage/mooring, carrying, maintenance, insurance, etc costs (most of which are artificially inflated one way or the other) and even a lowly MacGregor 26 is not so affordable any more.

PS No, not $15K-$20K for IP, that would be a price for 30s ft Huntebenebavalinas and would bring in the lower income crowd. IPs would be $40K-$50K.

PPS But realistically speaking, of course new boats over say 20ft, both sail and power will never be affordable new to the vast majority of population. Major reason being that as distinct from cars the boats are not something most people need to use daily in their lives. Not would our local real estate tax based gov'ts would ever encourage liveaboard life style over the land based (and easily taxable) one.
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Old 29-02-2016, 08:15   #173
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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Going back to my comparison to the fledgling automobile market in the beginning of 20th C, there still would have been plenty of customers to keep a niche market going for Pierce and Arrows, Dusenbergs and Rolls Royces if Henry Ford never showed up to the party. And we realize that the world is significantly different because of him, including our own American economy (the question for better or worse is for another day). Yes, I have no doubt that some individual boat makers will always continue to make money aiming at the 1% among the 1 percenters but I was talking more about the total market transformation from the larger picture POV. And think of the great economic benefit to the country if every middle class person who wants a brand new boat could afford one just as today they all can afford a brand new car or two every few years. And the dynamic of the today's auto market does not push majority of car ownership wannabees into buying 30-40 year old cars just to have a car.

BTW I'm pretty sure that in H. Ford's time the vast majority of economic and market place pundits said that his idea is not doable, a dream, a fantasy, etc, etc.
I think you are trying to over-simplify a complicated economics problem. With only 14K total units sold in the US by all manufactures, the demand is far less than the supply. The ancillary parts and pieces in producing and selling a yacht in the United States are bigger issues than the ability to manufacture large quantities of any type of recreational vehicle.

You don't have to go far to understand what the biggest factors are creating less of a demand, and primarily the correlation with the economy as a whole and a generation coming of age with far less to show for it than the generation prior. It is not getting cheaper to build product in the United States and most manufactures need the government or charter industry to continue to support new model development and sales.

The biggest killer of boat manufactures in the United States has been government. Good or Bad is not the argument, but regulation adds to costs and the new EPA requirements on marine and small engines will have a huge effect in the US in the coming years.
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Old 29-02-2016, 08:24   #174
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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I think you are trying to over-simplify a complicated economics problem. With only 14K total units sold in the US by all manufactures, the demand is far less than the supply. The ancillary parts and pieces in producing and selling a yacht in the United States are bigger issues than the ability to manufacture large quantities of any type of recreational vehicle.

You don't have to go far to understand what the biggest factors are creating less of a demand, and primarily the correlation with the economy as a whole and a generation coming of age with far less to show for it than the generation prior. It is not getting cheaper to build product in the United States and most manufactures need the government or charter industry to continue to support new model development and sales.

The biggest killer of boat manufactures in the United States has been government. Good or Bad is not the argument, but regulation adds to costs and the new EPA requirements on marine and small engines will have a huge effect in the US in the coming years.
Agree on over regulation point. But my bigger point is that there many industries industries which started out in the 20th C as super expensive niche products for the very few (think not just automobiles but computers, TVs, etc) and grew into a way of life for the vast majority of the population, rich and poor alike. For whatever reason that has not happened for the marine industry and my different (and seemingly often contradicting questions/attempts at answers) are just a search for these reasons.
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Old 29-02-2016, 08:36   #175
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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I don't have a dog in this fight, but I do not agree with that statement.

The bits of a yacht must be maintained, that includes the chainplates and keel bolts. It seems only fair game that when people beat up on the IP for the chainplate design that it is only fitting to make mention that no one has lost their life on an IP that lost her mast.
There's the issue. Take what ever boat you think is indestructable and fail to maintain it and you will eventually start seeing failures.

Then again statistically, 1 boat per year (typically a specialty race boat, abused and/or not maintained) isn't much of a pattern. I bet more than 1 boat per year goes down due to failed seacocks...

Are we going to outlaw seacocks? From now on you station a man with a bucket pooring seawater into a funnel to feed the engine cooling system? You may lose him overboard but there will be no seacock to take the boat down.
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Old 29-02-2016, 09:58   #176
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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There's the issue. Take what ever boat you think is indestructable and fail to maintain it and you will eventually start seeing failures.

Then again statistically, 1 boat per year (typically a specialty race boat, abused and/or not maintained) isn't much of a pattern. I bet more than 1 boat per year goes down due to failed seacocks...

Are we going to outlaw seacocks? From now on you station a man with a bucket pooring seawater into a funnel to feed the engine cooling system? You may lose him overboard but there will be no seacock to take the boat down.
I think you are getting way too caught up in it. This discussion has nothing to do with the statistical likelihood of inherent vulnerabilities to any one design over another. Yes, sinking is the number one cause of loss, but primarily at the dock. Lightening losses are up there in the forefront as well. It is difficult to ascertain through a normal survey items like IP Chainplates and Bene keel bolts. I only agree with the argument that no one has lost their life on an IP that was de-masted where the contrary argument there have been many lives lost.

Does that make one choice better than the other? I don't think so. We mitigate in our own way. You can choose to drive a 4 door sedan or a sports car. Enjoying the thrill of the drive and getting there a little faster may outweigh the low probability that your chances for an accident and death are a little higher. Using your argument that all cars get in accidents is not a factor when looking at the specific probability of two types that are most compared between one choice or the other.

There are folks that are both true and self-proclaimed experts that will beat up on anything that does not make sense to them, but personally I would rather be on the best boat I can possibly afford at the time, and that boat and my taste evolve with time and income. I don't mind accepting the risk that can't be mitigated by design or maintenance if the boat serves my needs.

Funny, I never hear the shrimpers get into these kinds of arguments about their boats and there are many boats that seem less seaworthy than my dingy, but still go out every morning regardless of the weather. They are still a thing of beauty captured by many photographers and painters nonetheless and they are serving their purpose.
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Old 29-02-2016, 10:13   #177
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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Funny you'd say that. I always found a Fiat 500 far more fun to drive than a "caddie"...



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If your definition of fun is being slammed around barely able to hold on for a couple of days while being cold and wet, then you are one tough customer.
The difference in motion in heavy seas between light/heavy displacement is not the same as driving a sports car on a winding road for an afternoon...you can stop the car at any time and rest, stretch your legs, have lunch...
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Old 29-02-2016, 10:24   #178
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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If your definition of fun is being slammed around barely able to hold on for a couple of days while being cold and wet, then you are one tough customer.
The difference in motion in heavy seas between light/heavy displacement is not the same as driving a sports car on a winding road for an afternoon...you can stop the car at any time and rest, stretch your legs, have lunch...
Amen to that.
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Old 29-02-2016, 10:32   #179
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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......


......and failed to create new exciting designs that prospective buyers of new boats were seeking.


.............A company needs to provide a product or service that people want to buy.

Only five weeks until we're back on the water.
Ken,

Just what would be, in your opinion, that "...a product that people want to buy..."? General characteristics would be a good start. Thanks.

Down to four and a half weeks, although that pesky February 29th added a day!
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Old 29-02-2016, 10:42   #180
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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It leaves fewer choices because the market doesn't want them. EFI is drastically simpler for the average user. I haven't had to do anything to an EFI system in the last 30yrs and I don't know of anyone else who has. Carbs required periodic maintenance. There is no advantage. Reality is when you and I are gone, there will be very few people around who has any clue what a carb is, nor will they care to have one.

It's very similar with outdated boat designs. People buy the used ones because they are cheap. They may fall in love or not later. People buying new aren't forced to buy outdated designs, so they don't. Not sure about the whole euro-design thing but most people never have a need for 3" thick hulls. It's like lamenting the old Lincolns with the 3 mile long hoods. Reality is your bottom of the barrel modern econo box will outperform them and be safer in the process.
EFI is "simpler" only if one is in the habit of taking the car to the dealer for repairs and buying a new car every 2-3 years.We just have different perspectives I think, which is fine. In my younger days I was into fast sports cars with multiple carbs etc. but much preferred the XKE Jag to the Fiat Spyder...they were both fun to drive, but for extended trips and putting down long miles the E-Type was comfortable, fast, and left me relaxed and ready for more at the end of the day. Not so the Fiat...

Boats, to me, are similar in that respect..."marketing" as defined by some is the driving force in boat choice and defines the "modern" boat as sleek, shiny, fast, able to speed away from heavy weather, hourly weather faxes, plenty of buttons to push for auto pilot, waypoints, radar alarms, depth alarms, EPIRB in emergency...granted that there are cheaper econo box boats, but the fantasy/dream pushed by the advertising folks sends the same message to all.
To me it signals an unhealthy trend away from the lessons taught by past experiences toward design features that contribute nothing toward safety and comfort on the water. Granted, I agree with you that "most people" will never need to confront survival conditions, yet here we are on a "Cruising Forum" where the focus is on sailing to distant lands and exploring the world.
I just hate to think that we will ignore healthy, simple, heavily built cruising boats in favor of "market driven" boat design and construction.

There is a point where marketing and going to sea in relative safety are not necessarily compatible.
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