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Old 28-02-2016, 18:06   #151
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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I was thinking the same thing. That considering the conveyor belt nature of today's production run, including the automation involved in the mold/plug production, the modern white plastic no frills boat should be sold by weight with maybe some additional price adjustment for custom cushions, hardware, etc. There is no market based reason (other than slick marketing BS) to price a 12,000lbs boat $200K, $300K, $400K or more if her per pound manufacturing cost is $2, $3 or at most $4-$5. So if it costs $30,000-$60,000 to make 12,000lbs boat why is the manufacturer not content with $40,000-$60,000 profit? If they discard all of the slick marketing BS and all the annual boat show expenses and what not and just sell the bare or semi-bare 35-40ft NEW boat on e-bay for $100,000 that would be a market revolution worthy of Henry Ford.
Yep.

I designed a prefab. A very efficient timber frame house. Well, the panels to build one, plus the fittings.

95% of the benefits of Canadian R2000 standards, for 5% of the cost.

But people do seem to want to pay 20+ times what they have to, for no material benefit.

The company I designed them for, even though they far exceeded anything the Scandinavian timber frame makers were doing at the time, couldn't sell enough of them to stay in business.

There would indeed appear to be fools born every minute. /sigh

eta: In fact some of the kits today are so bad, with non-structural boarding put on the frames, that instead of the inner frame holding everything up solidly, there's a reliance on the decorative non structural outer walls to hold everything up. Then add in the wide practice of not fixing the frames properly to the base plate and pad, and all it will take is the next storm being a bit above average, and you are lined up for a right mess on your hands. All heavily compounded by inadequate site supervision.

But the loan on the property has been packaged and sold to all manner of investors, several times over, so it's all hunky dory.
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Old 28-02-2016, 18:21   #152
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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Yep.

I designed a prefab. A very efficient timber frame house. Well, the panels to build one, plus the fittings.

95% of the benefits of Canadian R2000 standards, for 5% of the cost.

But people do seem to want to pay 20+ times what they have to, for no material benefit.

The company I designed them for, even though they far exceeded anything the Scandinavian timber frame makers were doing at the time, couldn't sell enough of them to stay in business.

There would indeed appear to be fools born ever minute. /sigh
I have a good friend who used to be a leading naval architect/boat builder in a small Baltic country. He's the one who explained all of this to me. No one here wants to hear or to believe what he is saying. Not only that the wholesale cost to the manufacturer of resin/epoxy is 1/10 or cheaper of the cost at the retail but that the whole process especially when done by pimpled "yuts" fresh out of high school earning $12-15/hour at some low cost facility in the boonies is a tiny fraction of the retail price. My friend designed over several dozen of boats, including a few which won boat of the year in their categories at Oslo and Dusseldorf boat shows, and either personally built or supervised the building of well over 300 boats from 12 to 40 feet, so he speaks from extensive experience. I'll believe him long before I believe the marketing drivel being pushed onto us by snake oil salesmen at the boat shows.
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Old 28-02-2016, 19:01   #153
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

I never understood the theoretical haters of IP's who believe everyone who has ever bought one is an idiot. I honestly don't care about how much faster another boat design is, how they don't point as well as a fin keeled boat or will win any races on Sunday around the buoys. I care about getting from point A to point B safely and comfortably and how comfortable we are the rest of the time at dock or anchor. And frankly, we hold our own with other boats the same size sailing from anchorage to anchorage. A little different when you set your boat up for speed or set it up for comfort and balance with the monitor steering. I care about the resale when we decide to give up the lifestyle and pass it on to someone else.

Right now, if you look at any American boat building company, they are all having issues and many are one missed sale away from closing the doors and most have gone for additional loans or VC to get them through the past few years and still come up with something new.

The reality is the market has changed and the few that are doing well are catering to the upper 1% as the aging baby boomers are less inclined to buy a new sailboat and the generations in front don't have the discretionary cash to lay out the money for a new boat, and none right now are holding the value they used to. It used to make financial sense to buy a new boat as they would hold the value you paid. There are a lot of SP Cruisers a couple hundred grand less than new and just a few years old, and unless you have money to burn, that does not make a lot of sense.

Some have said that if IP concentrated on the small boat market... The small boat market is still saturated and even Hake is not selling a lot of 26RK's or he would have kept business as usual. Compac is another brand that is not pumping out little boats. West Wright Potter has been for sale for a while and Don't kid yourself if you think they are eating steak and caviar over at Pacific Seacraft.

The reality is the economy in the US is not conducive, much less the ever increasing and far reach of the EPA and other government entities. There is also not a huge calling for Custom or complete factory refits as Valliant and Robinhood are not turning out boats. Marlow-Hunter and Catalina are building boats like RV's on water and that seems to be OK with many of the buyers today, but as many of the 60's and 70's boats are still floating, I often wonder really how long the current fleet will hold up.

What is most curious about the lack of news is the PNL company that has laid claim to the IP facility. Pure speculation, but sounds like the VC is making a take over bid for the company and may be no different than what Hake has been through before. They will come in and try and run the company like a regular business and prop it up to sell, or the present owners will find a way to buy the company back when VC figures out they can't run it like a regular company and turn a profit. The bad that comes out of it traditionally is quality and customer service suffers.

Hake remembers this all too well and did a great job personally keeping his good name.

Easy to speculate..., all I can say is we hope and pray the employees and management of Island Packet come through this better than before.
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Old 28-02-2016, 19:11   #154
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

A couple of thousand boats over 30 years surely would define a successful enterprise. Bob Johnson has in several interviews indicated the biggest problem of his business model was competing with his used boats. He came up with what he considered a good layout and stuck with it. This technique is tried and true for working the bugs out of a design/ manufacture. It worked until it didnít anymore. A lot of things probably contributed to his throwing in the towel, not the least is his 72 year age. He had built a lot of production facility and the business of selling new expensive boats just didnít work after the financial collapse. He tried adding refit (hard to do if you are not on the water), Blue Jacket, a small electric launch, and taking in Seward production.

In the end we all have only so much time on this earth, and he probably decided time to move on to retirement and let some new blood take a shot at it.

As to IP designs, I have and still own a Hunter, have sailed with friends on Catalinas, Pacific Seacraft, Bendytoys, J Boats, Irwins, Morgans, Ranger, Buccaneer (probably the ugliest boat ever built), Gemini, and and Hobie Cats. They all have pluses and minuses . For what I want in a boat, my 32 IP wins hands down.

Also as to performance not all IPs are created equal. If you are really interested, I think you will find the 31 and 38 represented the beginning design (max beam well fwd), 32, 35, 40 (little finer entry) and the so called three digit boats (fine entry but heavy on the beam). The early models had some serious keels hanging below them, 90s models not so much, and new boat keels look like my centerboard boat without the CB. Some models perform better than others. The one common feature is plenty of living/storage and high quality systems.

You wonít find rotten deck cores in IPs. The only serious design issues are aluminum tanks and built in chain plates. In the ownerís manuals they make a point of keeping the chain plates sealed and they probably figured the aluminum water tanks would last the life of the boats. They just underestimated the life of the boats. The only real awsh#t was the aluminum holding tanks under the floor on the three digit models. I am sure Bob Johnson has spent many sleepless night wondering how in the He## did that slip by.

The cream colored gelcoat has to grow on you. But when the teak is varnished, and the stainless polished Cbreeze gets a lot of comments about what a good looking ship she is from passing folks (boaters and otherwise).

The reason why Publix Supermarket stocks so many different flavors of ice cream is different people like different flavors. I donít think less of you if plain old vanilla is your favorite, I just happen to like cookies and cream.

Frankly
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Old 28-02-2016, 19:13   #155
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

Some of you can lament the passing of another US builder all you want, but the fact remains.... More will follow the way of IP, Shannon etc until the few reminants of the industry finally pull their heads out of the 1980's sand and begin to build what the customers want.

Reminds me of the Brady Bunch movie when The architect father kept designing the same 1960's house he lived in for other projects and couldn't understand why no one wanted to buy his design. The domestic boat industry is like watching a lame 1990's comedy with Mike Brady behind the helm.
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Old 28-02-2016, 19:39   #156
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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Some of you can lament the passing of another US builder all you want, but the fact remains.... More will follow the way of IP, Shannon etc until the few reminants of the industry finally pull their heads out of the 1980's sand and begin to build what the customers want.

Reminds me of the Brady Bunch movie when The architect father kept designing the same 1960's house he lived in for other projects and couldn't understand why no one wanted to buy his design. The domestic boat industry is like watching a lame 1990's comedy with Mike Brady behind the helm.
At a price the customers can afford. And that's the key IMO.
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Old 28-02-2016, 22:13   #157
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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Pleasure onboard? If you like being bounced around. The difference in motion comfort is impressive. Heavy boats feel like big caddies where light boats require you to hold on as the boats are always bouncing around like your in a Fiat 500.

Funny you'd say that. I always found a Fiat 500 far more fun to drive than a "caddie"...



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Old 28-02-2016, 22:24   #158
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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I was thinking the same thing. That considering the conveyor belt nature of today's production run, including the automation involved in the mold/plug production, the modern white plastic no frills boat should be sold by weight with maybe some additional price adjustment for custom cushions, hardware, etc. There is no market based reason (other than slick marketing BS) to price a 12,000lbs boat $200K, $300K, $400K or more if her per pound manufacturing cost is $2, $3 or at most $4-$5. So if it costs $30,000-$60,000 to make 12,000lbs boat why is the manufacturer not content with $40,000-$60,000 profit? If they discard all of the slick marketing BS and all the annual boat show expenses and what not and just sell the bare or semi-bare 35-40ft NEW boat on e-bay for $100,000 that would be a market revolution worthy of Henry Ford.

I don't get it. If it is really that easy to make oodles of money building yachts (because that is what you are really implying here) then why are we simultaneously lamenting the fact that yet another yacht builder appears to be in trouble...



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Old 28-02-2016, 22:31   #159
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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At a price the customers can afford. And that's the key IMO.
It doesn't matter what people can afford. There will always be a large population of people with plenty of money to spend, but a manufacturer needs to make something which will entice them to part with their money. Beneteau, Jeaneau, Hanse, Bavaria, Sunreef, Discovery, Lagoon, Oyster to name just a few... Don't seem to have much trouble finding hundreds of buyers for boats costing much more than an Island Packet.

Attend the next boat show and see where all the buyers are hanging out and shopping.... Hint: It's not at the Hunter, Gemini and Catalina docks/booths where the salespeople look like the Maytag repairman.

I really do hope the domestic industry gets it's act together, but judging by the showing at the boat show last week.... It's not happening.
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Old 28-02-2016, 23:08   #160
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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I can see the logic in that...but that also leaves fewer choices for people that prefer the simplicity of carburetors? I just hate to see the elimination of rugged "old fashioned" types of cruising boats in favor of more "modern" design philosophies...
It leaves fewer choices because the market doesn't want them. EFI is drastically simpler for the average user. I haven't had to do anything to an EFI system in the last 30yrs and I don't know of anyone else who has. Carbs required periodic maintenance. There is no advantage. Reality is when you and I are gone, there will be very few people around who has any clue what a carb is, nor will they care to have one.

It's very similar with outdated boat designs. People buy the used ones because they are cheap. They may fall in love or not later. People buying new aren't forced to buy outdated designs, so they don't. Not sure about the whole euro-design thing but most people never have a need for 3" thick hulls. It's like lamenting the old Lincolns with the 3 mile long hoods. Reality is your bottom of the barrel modern econo box will outperform them and be safer in the process.
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Old 29-02-2016, 02:47   #161
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

I will say we have seen a ton of IP in the Caribbean, really a lot of them everywhere. So a very popular boat with the local crowd. Not my cup of tea but then again neither is a new Benni'. Let's face it though the Europeans seem to have a little more flair in their designs even if they are built on the cheaper side. When it comes to marketing there is no comparison, the Americans are not even in the game.
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Old 29-02-2016, 04:40   #162
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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It leaves fewer choices because the market doesn't want them. EFI is drastically simpler for the average user. I haven't had to do anything to an EFI system in the last 30yrs and I don't know of anyone else who has. Carbs required periodic maintenance. There is no advantage. Reality is when you and I are gone, there will be very few people around who has any clue what a carb is, nor will they care to have one.



It's very similar with outdated boat designs. People buy the used ones because they are cheap. They may fall in love or not later. People buying new aren't forced to buy outdated designs, so they don't. Not sure about the whole euro-design thing but most people never have a need for 3" thick hulls. It's like lamenting the old Lincolns with the 3 mile long hoods. Reality is your bottom of the barrel modern econo box will outperform them and be safer in the process.


Be safer in the process? Doubt it, as a blanket statement when you're talking about the "budget" new boat market.

My keel and rudder still haven't fallen off after 29 years... 😀

And somehow I can't be the only one who isn't in love with the fat assed euro look, no offense to those who are.


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Old 29-02-2016, 05:08   #163
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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Be safer in the process? Doubt it, as a blanket statement when you're talking about the "budget" new boat market.

My keel and rudder still haven't fallen off after 29 years... ��

And somehow I can't be the only one who isn't in love with the fat assed euro look, no offense to those who are.


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How many boats are you aware of that have had the keel fall off? (not stories heard 4th hand from the internet but actually know the person)

Reality is you are solving a non-problem.

I'm not crazy about some of the euro-styling either but thats that's probably an old guy issue. More importantly it's a side issue. You can build a euro-styled boat that is solid and seaworthy (as most are).
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Old 29-02-2016, 05:32   #164
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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It's very similar with outdated boat designs. People buy the used ones because they are cheap. They may fall in love or not later. People buying new aren't forced to buy outdated designs, so they don't....
Reality is your bottom of the barrel modern econo box will outperform them and be safer in the process.
Great post.

Did I tell you about driving a 1968 Mustang for 3 weeks? Gimme a Korean Rice-Bubble car anytime!
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Old 29-02-2016, 06:27   #165
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Re: Island Packet Closing doors

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How many boats are you aware of that have had the keel fall off? (not stories heard 4th hand from the internet but actually know the person)

Reality is you are solving a non-problem.

I'm not crazy about some of the euro-styling either but thats that's probably an old guy issue. More importantly it's a side issue. You can build a euro-styled boat that is solid and seaworthy (as most are).
I don't have a dog in this fight, but I do not agree with that statement.

At least 1 per year. Four British Sailors Missing after Yacht Capsizes in Caribbean

and 1st hand knowledge of this one:

Keel failures prompt call for oversight | Soundings Online

Yachting World has a good article.

Special investigation: Why do keel failures happen and what can we do to prevent it? Ė Yachting World


The bits of a yacht must be maintained, that includes the chainplates and keel bolts. It seems only fair game that when people beat up on the IP for the chainplate design that it is only fitting to make mention that no one has lost their life on an IP that lost her mast.
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