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Old 23-12-2015, 10:48   #151
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Re: Island packet 38 is this a good liveaboard/cruiser/coastal...bluewater sailboat?

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While your waiting for your class see if you can take some no boat required stuff. Navigation, diesel repair maintenance or any other boat related stuff. The knowledge will not be waisted and you need all of it. Its not just the sailing part. Take the classes before you get a boat.

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Thanks for your help!!
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Old 23-12-2015, 15:02   #152
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Re: Island packet 38 is this a good liveaboard/cruiser/coastal...bluewater sailboat?

Good morning everyone. It seems to me that we may be seeing cross-cultural issues here. I'm not sure I can sort this out, but I'm wanting to give it a go.

On one hand we have a whole bunch of posters from an English-derived background, and the OP of Puerto Rican (Latin) descent.

The English background ones, whom I'll call anglos henceforth, tend to de-value passionate expression for males (it's okay for women), whereas, in the Latin cultures, the more passionately a man expresses himself, the greater is his pride and manliness. That is, I think, the key which could open the lock that chains our disagreements here.

Two of CR's concepts that have got up the anglo's noses have been over the concept of karma as applied to anchoring and of himself dubbing himself "Capt." as a form of projection. To people not familiar with this type of projection, to me it is sort of like "white magic", it is an affirmation of where you want to be. What it is not, is hubris, but it reads as if it were, because if you don't understand that it is a technique to attract yourself to the appropriate actions to get to where you want to be, it sounds as if you are claiming to be more than you are, something sort of contemptible. I have used this type of projection successfully in my own life (but without labeling myself something I am not) and found it is effective, even though it is not as concrete as I might like. Although it all sounds really vague, and touchy-feely, it is a good technique that works.

The karma of anchoring one is harder for me to get a handle on, because I don't know what lesson I was supposed to learn by being T-boned. (I have a dog in this fight.) Some people believe in instant karma, in which case, Stu's (and our) getting T-boned would be a result of some negativity on his/our part, or of having a lesson to learn--that we attracted that to ourselves. If you don't believe in karma, that is a ridiculous statement, but if you do, it is a fact of life that if you do kindly, generous actions, you will receive that back, right now in this life. If you believe in physical world root causes, you think that carelessness, or intoxication causes accidents.So here, we have a belief system based total disagreement about what causes collisions in anchorages. CR, we feel BLAMED by the karmic interpretation, and become annoyed, feeling that the karmic interpretation denigrates us.

Well there, you have it, my hypothesis about what has caused our reactions in this thread. If it is correct, then maybe it will teach us all a little more about tolerance and compassion.

Cheers, guys, I hope it was all clear enough.

Ann




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Old 23-12-2015, 15:21   #153
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Re: Island packet 38 is this a good liveaboard/cruiser/coastal...bluewater sailboat?

Hi Ann,

I have taken into account that there can (and will) be cultural differences, and I "went with" the way RC feels about kama.

However ... I gave up when RC went with "your fault for simply being there" when someone else damages your boat (like you and Stu - you should simply not have been anywhere near other boats. You were, so you only have yourselves to blame for the damage). It had nothing to do with karma, although that was used earlier as a way to explain why it's your own fault when something bad or crappy happens:

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Originally Posted by CaptRican View Post
But you did parked the sailboat in an area where others had to come by you increasing that possibility.
He went on somewhere explaining how he will NEVER leave or sail his future vessel ANYWHERE where others boat(er)s are or could come close.

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Originally Posted by CaptRican View Post
FYI- In everything you have a choice. As i said before, if you do not want your car to be ding in the parking lot then park your car away from everybody, i do.
//
If you live in a packed marina then what should you expect? If you have neighbors what should you expect? If you park your car in a packed parking lot next to other cars what should you expect?
A few slips down, someone has the exact heater I want but can't find ... I'll go liberate that from his vessel, cos if he really wanted to keep it, he'd be (illegally) anchored somewhere, not living in a marina ...
Not my fault if I steal his stuff ...
The North Sea is only a few hrs out - he should just go out to sea, heave to and his stuff would have been save!

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Old 23-12-2015, 15:44   #154
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Re: Island packet 38 is this a good liveaboard/cruiser/coastal...bluewater sailboat?

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Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
Good morning everyone. It seems to me that we may be seeing cross-cultural issues here. I'm not sure I can sort this out, but I'm wanting to give it a go.

On one hand we have a whole bunch of posters from an English-derived background, and the OP of Puerto Rican (Latin) descent.

The English background ones, whom I'll call anglos henceforth, tend to de-value passionate expression for males (it's okay for women), whereas, in the Latin cultures, the more passionately a man expresses himself, the greater is his pride and manliness. That is, I think, the key which could open the lock that chains our disagreements here.

Two of CR's concepts that have got up the anglo's noses have been over the concept of karma as applied to anchoring and of himself dubbing himself "Capt." as a form of projection. To people not familiar with this type of projection, to me it is sort of like "white magic", it is an affirmation of where you want to be. What it is not, is hubris, but it reads as if it were, because if you don't understand that it is a technique to attract yourself to the appropriate actions to get to where you want to be, it sounds as if you are claiming to be more than you are, something sort of contemptible. I have used this type of projection successfully in my own life (but without labeling myself something I am not) and found it is effective, even though it is not as concrete as I might like. Although it all sounds really vague, and touchy-feely, it is a good technique that works.

The karma of anchoring one is harder for me to get a handle on, because I don't know what lesson I was supposed to learn by being T-boned. (I have a dog in this fight.) Some people believe in instant karma, in which case, Stu's (and our) getting T-boned would be a result of some negativity on his/our part, or of having a lesson to learn--that we attracted that to ourselves. If you don't believe in karma, that is a ridiculous statement, but if you do, it is a fact of life that if you do kindly, generous actions, you will receive that back, right now in this life. If you believe in physical world root causes, you think that carelessness, or intoxication causes accidents.So here, we have a belief system based total disagreement about what causes collisions in anchorages. CR, we feel BLAMED by the karmic interpretation, and become annoyed, feeling that the karmic interpretation denigrates us.

Well there, you have it, my hypothesis about what has caused our reactions in this thread. If it is correct, then maybe it will teach us all a little more about tolerance and compassion.

Cheers, guys, I hope it was all clear enough.

Ann




Ann
I think this is very well said, but I don't think either of these points was the cause of the frustration.

Actually a very typical newbie thread. Tons of romanticized ideas, zero experience, a soupçon of arrogance. It's an explosive brew. Unfortunately it is a daily occurance that people log on and ask for advice, don't like the advice given much, have a huge public moment of cognitive dissonance, and flounce off.

I kind of wish there was a giant sticky that addressed all the typical questions and misconceptions new people have, and pointed them to resources. It seems that that might forestall some of the reply posts that can come off as dismissive,rude,discouraging,or demoralizing. A "new poster" forum might even be useful.
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Old 23-12-2015, 15:45   #155
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Re: Island packet 38 is this a good liveaboard/cruiser/coastal...bluewater sailboat?

Ann you are a sweet heart!


So CaptRican think about this:

"You know, my daughter got promoted to Captain in the United States Army! and earned a commander position. "

How would your daughter's co workers reacted if as a new Second Lt. she put a title on her emails of Captain?
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Old 23-12-2015, 16:21   #156
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Re: Island packet 38 is this a good liveaboard/cruiser/coastal...bluewater sailboat?

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Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
The English background ones, whom I'll call anglos henceforth, tend to de-value passionate expression for males (it's okay for women), whereas, in the Latin cultures, the more passionately a man expresses himself, the greater is his pride and manliness.
Ann
"Passionate expression" or "irrational exuberance"? I wish I knew a stronger phrase than Greenspan's "irrational exuberance." How about "intoxicated grandiosity"? In any case, this has been a very entertaining thread as we Anglos and Euros have tried to analyze and advise this Latino. And I'm left wondering if this guy is real or is he just pulling our peg legs to see how long he can maintain the center of attention and how hard we will try to get through to him.
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Old 23-12-2015, 16:21   #157
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Re: Island packet 38 is this a good liveaboard/cruiser/coastal...bluewater sailboat?

I think he meant he wouldn't be posting in this thread further.

We'll see.
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Old 23-12-2015, 16:38   #158
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Re: Island packet 38 is this a good liveaboard/cruiser/coastal...bluewater sailboat?

vjm, and everybody,

I really like your post, and I think that it is a true, well targeted response. Maybe, where yours and mine come together is that I think what you wrote is correct: I have a pragmatic world view. And, I also think that although not all newbies have a karmic world view, they bring a landlubber view to everything: they lack the experiential knowledge to know better, and their landlubber world view is full of assumptions that don't work in the cruising environment.

It seems to me that it is hard to step back and see what is behind a particular situation, but I think if we can catch ourselves at what we're doing, perhaps we can de-fuse a potentially unpleasant situation.

I see a lot on CF that reminds me of a couple of dominant male dogs approaching each other with their tails up and their teeth exposed. We tend to feel sort of attached to our world views and bristle when such is threatened.

Anyhow, I'll concede that your hypothesis is a sensible interpretation, and by Occam's Razor, should be the preferred one. It is just that in this particular case, I think that the situation is more complex because the karmic point of view is faith based and the pragmatic one, more based on repeatable experience, and that was complicated by modes of expression and aggravation, with a hint of testosterone.

This thread offered this particular newbie a whole lot of advice, some of which he appeared to take on board. What appears to us to be over the top and insulting is largely due to his frustration that his world view and ours is different. I also think we do need to be sensitive to how our world view affects our communications, especially with those cultures where the men are encouraged to express their passion forcefully.

Like cut them some slack because we know we don't understand *it*; it's foreign to us.


@ Dr. Sea: Yeah, I wondered about that, too, anglo witch that i am, and yet...

And the energy suck hypothesis also could be right, in which case I look like a right idiot!

Anyhow, good holidays, everybody, I'm off now, for a while.

Ann
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Old 23-12-2015, 16:43   #159
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Re: Island packet 38 is this a good liveaboard/cruiser/coastal...bluewater sailboat?

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Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
Anyhow, good holidays, everybody, I'm off now, for a while.
Happy holidays to you and yours, Ann!

And I'll take what you said to heart.
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Old 23-12-2015, 16:46   #160
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Re: Island packet 38 is this a good liveaboard/cruiser/coastal...bluewater sailboat?

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Originally Posted by four winds View Post
I think he meant he wouldn't be posting in this thread further.

We'll see.
Yes, he's posted that a couple of times. It reminds me of Mark Antony and Ceasar's will in "Julius Caesar"--a coyness designed to invigorate response.
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Old 23-12-2015, 16:49   #161
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Re: Island packet 38 is this a good liveaboard/cruiser/coastal...bluewater sailboat?

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Originally Posted by darylat8750 View Post
Ann you are a sweet heart!

.....
Well, yeah, she is!

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Old 23-12-2015, 17:57   #162
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Re: Island packet 38 is this a good liveaboard/cruiser/coastal...bluewater sailboat?

I'm usually the one getting nasty-grams from the Mods about berating someone. But this time the rest of you took the cake on this one. I thought CR was nothing more than ignorant about sailing but quite polite to everyone in general. I was disappointed that people who have been here a very short time jumped on the bandwagon.
It was a good lesson for me to move in a more tolerant direction and lighten up more. Maybe it will be a good New Years resolution.
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Old 24-12-2015, 09:22   #163
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Re: Island packet 38 is this a good liveaboard/cruiser/coastal...bluewater sailboat?

Personally, I can't see anything negative with CR.

He is enthusiastic (which can grate with the jaded), keen to learn, and is asking what he feels are the right questions to get what he expects to be the right answers, in what he sees to be the right place to be asking them.

He follows the route of the knowledge, and when he is presented with new knowledge, he chases that up as well.

It's not as if he isn't paying attention to what he is being told. I am pretty sure he is, and I think Ann made a very pertinent point too.

When he has been told 'good things' to do and get to improve his knowledge, he has done them and got them. When advised to look in a different area, he paid attention enough to make a commitment to do it and did it.

I have seen plenty of people like CR move from cities to the deep green countryside, and do well enough fast enough to never want to go back. They didn't want to bring the city with them, and want to turn where they go to, into an exact copy of the place they ran away from. Sure they missed stuff at first, but they soon adapted to their neighbours, and became valuable parts of the community.

Others unlike CR, have done far from well in those circumstances. So I think the odds on things turning out well for CR, given his enthusiasm and likely ingrained perseverance, puts him on the right side of the scales for success (even if it may turn out to be a little slower coming, than he perhaps anticipates).

As Sonny says, in the film "The Best Exotic Marigold Hotel":

"Everything will be alright in the end. If it's not alright, then it isn't the end."

There's a lot of truth in that.

{yeah, yeah, we've all seen people fall at 'unsolvable' obstacles, that are really all too solvable, but you need the 'can do' attitude to overcome them}

A Merry Christmas To All!

PS. I have helped large numbers of completely inexperienced but 'can do' amateurs, tackle natural slate reroofing of their house modernisations and refurbishments, given them all the information they needed, plus lent the qualified slater for a half a day to get them going, and to a man and woman, they have done beautiful work. If they hit a problem, they weren't afraid to pick up the phone and ask how to solve it.
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Old 24-12-2015, 11:26   #164
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Re: Island packet 38 is this a good liveaboard/cruiser/coastal...bluewater sailboat?

Ann & others,

Thank you for your thoughtful and reasonable analysis of the issue related to the sometimes bizarre and unrealistic posts by Captain Rican (CR).

It may be helpful to recognize, as often stated in this thread, that many folks on this thread may not be aware of the fact that CR posted a bunch of new threads over the past week, asking about a series of different boats. In response to those multiple threads, many of us tried to help him understand posting and internet forum etiquette seemingly to no avail, although he did seem to finally “get it.”

In my case, within this thread and as part of the normal back-and-forth, I mentioned in passing my experience in an anchorage just a few weeks ago when another boat T-boned me. His response left me flabbergasted: it was my fault for being there! Hogwash.

But just to turn the screws in even harder, in a subsequent reply, he mentioned getting burglarized. Now there’s no way for him to have known that literally a year ago almost to the day it had also happened to me!!!

Think of it: in one year I get burglarized and then T-boned while at anchor and this newbie know-nothing uses those two situations as examples and suggests BOTH of them are MY FAULT.

To put it in perspective, I’d spent, as many of you did, a fair bit of time on this and his numerous other threads, trying to HELP him.

All we got back was blithering stupidity and a “blame the victim” approach that, like Scoobert’s examples, I found offensive.

Ann, I appreciate your approach to the CULTURAL differences between Anglos and Latinos. Indeed, I even brushed lightly on that in one of my earlier posts:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
Maybe it's the translation, I just don't get this approach of "what you, who has never sailed" would do.

I've (we've) been trying to help you.

This response is not helpful at all. I found it offensive.
Ann, “passionate expression for males…” may be one way to approach it, and I actually thought about it. But the more I thought about it, the more simply rude I found his responses and his back-and-forth with us on this thread, perhaps because of my personal experiences over the past year. As you know, I’m active on a wide variety of boating forums, and I have rarely, if ever, been exposed to such poor behavior, notwithstanding my sensitivity to these two particular facts (having been both T-boned and burglarized). How this dude FOUND those two particular things to pick on is beyond me. Karma? Yup, sure struck twice here, didn’t it?

I simply don’t think “cross-cultural issues” are at work here, but rather insensitivity to facts and a basic understanding of simple seamanship from a newbie, in spite of the help being offered.

I’ve lived abroad for many years and am quite aware of different strokes for different folks. I caught a glimmer of that from his replies, but still don’t get the “blame the victim” approach he took, as I mentioned in my “parking-your-Denali” reply analogy.

Not knowing the difference between an anchorage and a marina got me, too.

Lizzy caught it well, I think:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lizzy Belle View Post
Hi Ann,

I have taken into account that there can (and will) be cultural differences, and I "went with" the way RC feels about kama.

However ... I gave up when RC went with "your fault for simply being there" when someone else damages your boat (like you and Stu - you should simply not have been anywhere near other boats. You were, so you only have yourselves to blame for the damage). It had nothing to do with karma, although that was used earlier as a way to explain why it's your own fault when something bad or crappy happens:

He went on somewhere explaining how he will NEVER leave or sail his future vessel ANYWHERE where others boat(er)s are or could come close.

A few slips down, someone has the exact heater I want but can't find ... I'll go liberate that from his vessel, cos if he really wanted to keep it, he'd be (illegally) anchored somewhere, not living in a marina ...
Not my fault if I steal his stuff ...
The North Sea is only a few hrs out - he should just go out to sea, heave to and his stuff would have been save!

[IMG]file:///C:/Users/Stu/AppData/Local/Temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.gif[/IMG]
VJM also caught it well:

Quote:
Originally Posted by vjm View Post
I think this is very well said, but I don't think either of these points was the cause of the frustration.

Actually a very typical newbie thread. Tons of romanticized ideas, zero experience, a soupçon of arrogance. It's an explosive brew. Unfortunately it is a daily occurance that people log on and ask for advice, don't like the advice given much, have a huge public moment of cognitive dissonance, and flounce off.

I kind of wish there was a giant sticky that addressed all the typical questions and misconceptions new people have, and pointed them to resources. It seems that that might forestall some of the reply posts that can come off as dismissive,rude,discouraging,or demoralizing. A "new poster" forum might even be useful.
A “new poster” sticky already exists on many forums, but those kind of stickies are the last thing people like that ever read.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Sea View Post
"Passionate expression" or "irrational exuberance"? I wish I knew a stronger phrase than Greenspan's "irrational exuberance." How about "intoxicated grandiosity"? In any case, this has been a very entertaining thread as we Anglos and Euros have tried to analyze and advise this Latino. And I'm left wondering if this guy is real or is he just pulling our peg legs to see how long he can maintain the center of attention and how hard we will try to get through to him.
Troll? I doubt it, he seemed real enough until he left in his own huff. We have all experienced this before on the internet in forums. Indeed, I mentioned Scoobert in one of CR’s other threads, and zeehag noted that Scoob had an attention deficit issue, which tended to make him sound somewhat arrogant. That I can understand. And taking that and adding it with cultural differences is a dangerous mix.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
I'm usually the one getting nasty-grams from the Mods about berating someone. But this time the rest of you took the cake on this one. I thought CR was nothing more than ignorant about sailing but quite polite to everyone in general. I was disappointed that people who have been here a very short time jumped on the bandwagon.
It was a good lesson for me to move in a more tolerant direction and lighten up more. Maybe it will be a good New Years resolution.[IMG]file:///C:/Users/Stu/AppData/Local/Temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image002.gif[/IMG]
CS, yes he is ignorant of sailing issues, because he is NEW at it. What you may not be aware of is that he posted three to five or six OTHER separate threads on different boats, each one of which he was provided with a lot of very good input from a wide variety of skippers. Yes, he bought a few books, but he could well have waited to opine on BASIC sailing issues without any basis of fact or experience.

But that’s NOT my beef with him. He just pushed two big WRONG buttons based on my own recent not-so-great personal life experiences.

I don’t care where you live or what your cultural background may be, in this case, because all of us live in a house or a boat somewhere, and none of us like to be burglarized or T-boned. He even used his Denali in a parking lot analogy. Heck, if he knows what a Denali is, and what a BIG parking lot is, perhaps there’s not that much of a cultural difference after all.

And blaming the victim is dumb no matter what your background may be.
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Old 24-12-2015, 11:50   #165
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Re: Island packet 38 is this a good liveaboard/cruiser/coastal...bluewater sailboat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
Good morning everyone. It seems to me that we may be seeing cross-cultural issues here. I'm not sure I can sort this out, but I'm wanting to give it a go.

On one hand we have a whole bunch of posters from an English-derived background, and the OP of Puerto Rican (Latin) descent.

The English background ones, whom I'll call anglos henceforth, tend to de-value passionate expression for males (it's okay for women), whereas, in the Latin cultures, the more passionately a man expresses himself, the greater is his pride and manliness. That is, I think, the key which could open the lock that chains our disagreements here.

Two of CR's concepts that have got up the anglo's noses have been over the concept of karma as applied to anchoring and of himself dubbing himself "Capt." as a form of projection. To people not familiar with this type of projection, to me it is sort of like "white magic", it is an affirmation of where you want to be. What it is not, is hubris, but it reads as if it were, because if you don't understand that it is a technique to attract yourself to the appropriate actions to get to where you want to be, it sounds as if you are claiming to be more than you are, something sort of contemptible. I have used this type of projection successfully in my own life (but without labeling myself something I am not) and found it is effective, even though it is not as concrete as I might like. Although it all sounds really vague, and touchy-feely, it is a good technique that works.

The karma of anchoring one is harder for me to get a handle on, because I don't know what lesson I was supposed to learn by being T-boned. (I have a dog in this fight.) Some people believe in instant karma, in which case, Stu's (and our) getting T-boned would be a result of some negativity on his/our part, or of having a lesson to learn--that we attracted that to ourselves. If you don't believe in karma, that is a ridiculous statement, but if you do, it is a fact of life that if you do kindly, generous actions, you will receive that back, right now in this life. If you believe in physical world root causes, you think that carelessness, or intoxication causes accidents.So here, we have a belief system based total disagreement about what causes collisions in anchorages. CR, we feel BLAMED by the karmic interpretation, and become annoyed, feeling that the karmic interpretation denigrates us.

Well there, you have it, my hypothesis about what has caused our reactions in this thread. If it is correct, then maybe it will teach us all a little more about tolerance and compassion.

Cheers, guys, I hope it was all clear enough.

Ann
Ann
Projection is taught to those who must deal with situations where basic human instinct tends to overpower your ability to be pro-active. It drives confidence, self-assurance makes the person competent...dependable...driven.

Karma, is the atmosphere, the aura, the feelings, the unseen that comes upon, that is created by the way the person behaves, see, feel, do, think, do unto others, see others, judge others...by their actions when no one is looking...sometimes the Karma of the person can be felt at first meeting, sometimes is like a growing manifestation....

Sometimes, there is instant Karma...sometimes...rare. But that is not the Karma being talked about here. Here is the Karma that you leave behind like a long flowing veil.

Yes, I am a Latino, raised in the culture and at a time when the culture was strong...I was raised by people who lived by their word. Your word and a hug were your signature on the contracts. Were it was selling 50 cows or 100 horses, or 100 racimos the guineos verdes your word and the hug was the deal, honor.

Yes i am passionate, i am emotional, i am not ashamed to cry or to show my feelings for that which i love or feel strongly about. I have no problem going to hell and back and paying the price, for that which i feel strongly about. But neither do i want to go around fighting trivial insignificant fights or involving myself with people who indulge in such scenarios. I seek peace, understanding, peace, love, care, peace....understanding.

Intercultural differences? Maybe. Lack of understanding? More probable... Lack of mental training? yeap....

In communication, when a person starts to deviate from the facts, from the argument and ad hominems start to manifest themselves and insults, then there is no longer good karma in that communication and is time to move on. I will have the patience of eternity if you seek to understand me and you seek for me to understand you. Peace out!
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