Island Packet 31 for Liveaboard / Offshore?

[Gray]

I'm just beginning my search for a cruising boat.

My sailing school (Maryland School of Sailing and Seamanship) uses Island Packets exclusively and there is an active community of IP owners here too, so I have been looking seriously at them. I'm also interested in hearing about some comparable alternatives. My budget is about $60 to $80 thousand for the boat.

I plan to spend the next 5 or so years weekend sailing with occasional week or so cruises locally or charters abroad. After that, I am hoping to take a break from work and cruise for several months..

I'm interested in a safe, seaworthy boat with room for two adults and maybe a couple of small children. Since I intend to own the boat for a few years before embarking on a major journey, I will have time to make upgrades to get it ready for cruising.

Thanks in advance for your advice,
--gray

[Pblais]

I you are planning on weeend sailing and doing short trips for 5 years don't try to buy your ultimate cruising boat now. The needs of a day and weekend sailor don't match the needs of a long term cruiser. A $50Kto $80K IP after you sail it around for 5 years will eat you alive in refit costs and 5 years you'll have nothing. An IP in that price range is already not anything very new at all. new IP's cost a heck of a lot.

Suggest you just find an affordable boat for sailing in your own area and start saving the real money for the better boat. Buy a boat that suits the purpose you need now and then use that time to perfect your skills and your true desires. Don't go broke now but instead get yourself out sailing as much as you can foir cheap!

In 5 years you will know so much more than now and have a lot of experience. By then you will already know the answer to what boat is right for you. In the end it's not the boat that matters - it's the sailor. Invest your moeny over the next few years in getting yourself out there and sailing all ou can.

[mkochens]

My dreamboat, that sounds so corny, was a 35' Island Packet. I first saw one at the Miami Boat Show in 1994. The price even then was outrageous at 169,000 but what a beauty. I had a 27' Catalina and was looking for the perfect cruiser. That was the boat. As things turned out, I ended up with an Irwin 35 Citation. It wasn't a bad boat and it handled the weather nicely but the bilge was so shallow it ruined my teak and holly sole over the period of 2 years. It was a good coastal cruiser but not something I would take beyond Bahamas. I know you can get a good 31' IP for around 75,000 which is within your budget. I think after sailing the 31' IP, if you decide to get that as your cruiser, you have made a great choice. For a family of four it could be a bit tight, but it should still work. I would probably buy it a year or two before the planned departure, that should be enough time to personalize it and get to know it. Good luck and happy sailing.

[Anonymous]

Gray,

Sent you a private mail.

[Jeff H]

Island Packets seem to be a very popular topic on sailing discussion groups. I must admit that Island Packets are a bit of a mystery to me. I understand and love traditional watercraft and I also understand modern yacht design. I really don't get Island Packets. They appear to be traditional in appearance and yet Island Packets are very far from the kinds of hull modeling and rigs that give traditional watercraft their character and laudable sailing characteristics. Neither are Island Packets modern boats that take advantage of advances in material engineering and aerodynamics. Instead they seem to be a strange combination of design elements that exhibit many of the disadvantages of both traditional and modern craft but with few of the virtues of either.

What Island Packets do well is provide a lot of living space on a given waterline length, or length on deck. They manage to provide a tremendous amount accommodations and tankage in a nominally small package but of course that depends on how you define small. There is a tendency to size a boat by its length on deck. Using that metric an Island Packet puts a lot of boat in a small package.

But measured by any other system of measurement they don't fare quite as well. To explain my position, it can be argued that displacement is a fairer measure of size. By and large displacement governs the amount of sail area and wetted surface that a boat has. All things being equal, displacement governs the cost of a boat to build. It governs the size of the hardware and gear that is required and it governs the cost of maintaining and owning a boat. And probably more than anything else, displacement governs how much work it takes to sail a boat. On the other hand, in and of itself, displacement does not contribute to strength, or seaworthiness or comfort.

While Island Packets load a lot of displacement on a given waterline length, they do not offer a lot of room, or comfort for their displacement. Which brings me to the next issue, the affects of putting a lot of displacement on a relatively short waterline length. (Using displacement as yardstick, you would not think of these as heavy boats but as boats that are short for their displacement.) When you put a lot of displacement on a relatively short waterline, you end up with a boat that has a relatively large amount of drag compared to a boat that has a longer length but the same displacement. That means that it is hard for the shorter waterline boat to achieve the same speed as the longer boat on any point of sail. This is especially true at either end of the wind range, in lighter or heavier winds, and when going upwind and downwind where drag is especially important. Higher drag, the deeper canoe body, which restricts the depth of the foil portion of the keel, and a blunter entry, means more leeway and poorer pointing ability for the shorter length boat. Greater drag means that the shorter length boat needs to carry more sail area in heavier going. Higher drag means that although these boats may have a similar theoretical hullspeed to boat with an equal length waterline, their greater drag means that they will end up spending less time at or near that theoretical hull speed and will be a lot harder to sail at anywhere near its potential.

In a properly designed boat, greater length for a given displacement also means a more comfortable motion because it means a shallower canoe body, which for a given draft permits more roll dampening and a longer waterline also provides better pitch dampening.

With less drag, the longer boat of the same displacement can get by with less sail area and so is actually an easier boat for a couple to handle short handed, especially when things get dicey out there. One of my pet issues with the Island Packets is that they do not really provide the tools that allow the sail plans of these boats to be depowered (not reducing sailarea)properly when winds and seas require depowering.

Of course spreading that displacement over a longer length also means a more comfortable and less cramped interior arrangement. As someone who has designed sailboat interiors, that extra length allows greater storage and just a little more room in the head and for berths and for the kinds of spreading out that makes living aboard more comfortable.

And here is where personal preference comes into play. Some people prefer to have the advantages that come with a faster boat (greater range in a given day, less motoring time, and the strategic advantages of being better able to pick your time of leaving or arriving). While for others, speed is not important. If speed is important to you then there are much better choices out there. Speed and sailing ability can be a real advantage in coastal cruising but it is not a be all and end all for everyone. Faster boats with better lighter air performance are richly rewarded on the Chesapeake (where I have kept my boats for the past 20 years). On the Chesapeake a little more speed means a lot more places that are within range for a weekend and when combined with better light air performance allows a lot more sailing and a lot less motoring.

Island Packets are boats that tend to roll and pitch more slowly but through larger angles than similar sized boats. For some this slower motion is much more comfortable. For others these larger roll angles make getting about more tiring and less comfortable. This is very much a product of personal preference. There is no universally right here but on the Chesapeake with its short spaced, steep chop, these roll characteristics can really be uncomfortable and just about stop the boat in its tracks. It drives me crazy that Island Packet make no effort to keep its vertical center of gravity as low as posible which in every study of safety at sea is seen as one of the most critical factors for comfort of motion and safety when things get really bad out there.

Your post seems to suggest that you are trying to learn to sail. Learning to sail means different things to different people. To some it simply the ability to reliably get a boat out of slip, and back again. It is the ability to sort of go up wind and down. To others there is a lot more to learning to sail well. To this group there is learning how to trim sails to improves speed, comfort and to reduce the wear and tear on crew and the boat. I can assure you that you will never be able to develop those kinds of sail trim and boat handling skills on an Island Packet 31 (especially the 31. I know because I have tried to teach a couple how to sail their Island Packet 31 and ultimately we had to go out on my boat help them understand. I am suspicious of a sailing school that somehow thinks its a good idea to teach sailing on an Island Packet but that will have to be another thread.)In any event, if your goal is to learn to sail well, in other words to understand sail trim and boathandling, then the Island Packet should be off of your list of possible choices.

Then there is the whole quality issue. Island Packets are filled with nicely executed details. On the other hand there is a bunch of design details that really drive me crazy on these boats. It drives me crazy that a boat with the size sail plan of these use light duty, plastic sheave, blocks. It drives me crazy that the sailing ergonomics of these boats makes sail trim and sail handling so difficult. It drives me crazy that some of the IP models vent their propane tanks amidships near the waterline where they fail to meet basic safety standards when heeled. (That is a just plain basic safety item that even the high volume builders seem to get right) It drives me crazy that so few of the IP models have good seaberths or a cabin sole that can be traversed easily when the boat is heeled over. It drives me crazy that setting sail off of a bowsprit is somehow seen as a good idea. Even traditional working craft began to give up on bowsprit hung sails by the early 20th century. That bowsprit means that you pay for a slip for a much longer boat than you get to enjoy the speed, seaworthiness or comfort of.

It drives me crazy that IP's use post hung spade rudders but then fail to really take advantage of the potential virtues of a spade rudder. Using a post-hung spade rudder in the way that Island Packet does makes no sense to me. On a properly designed modern fin keel/ spade rudder boat, the rudder is quite a substantial distance above the bottom of the keel so that it usually does not contact bottom during a grounding. On the Island Packets their spade rudder is pretty much the same depth as the keel making it even more vulnerable than the sportier spade rudders that they put down in their sales talks at boat shows.

Then there is their much-vaunted long keels. To me, having owned quite a few long keel boats in my day, there are few features that are more over-rated. To a great extent tracking ability is the product of dynamic balance. (The best tracking boat that I ever owned was a fin keeled spade rudder boat and the worst had a long keel. Tracking is in the eye of the designer and sail Trimmer) When you run a long keel boat aground you are seriously planted. A grounding that might have been a simple inconvenience becomes the moral equivalent of homesteading. While long keels do provide more support to a boat in a grounding, in the case of the Island Packet, they are using an encapsulated keel. While these are cheaper to build, in a hard grounding it exposes the watertight membrane of the hull to the full impact rather than having the somewhat sacrificial metal surface of a bolt on keel.

In the end, whether an Island Packet makes sense for you all depends your priorities. If you enjoy gunkholing under sail. If you live and sail in a venue such as the Chesapeake that favors light air performance and rewards a little bit more speed with a lot more places to go. If you are trying to develop sail trim and boathandling skills. If you hate to motor when you could be sailing, then perhaps the Island Packet might not be the best choice. If these are not a priority of yours then the Island Packet might suit you fine.

Respectfully,
Jeff

[Gray]

Jeff,

Thanks for all the great information and your opinion.

I'm not sure about why the Maryland School uses Island Packets. I suspect they have some sort of deal with the nearby Island Packet dealer. Their coastal cruising and offshore courses are taught on an IP 45, which is a little more in line with the "ideal" cruising boat numbers in Nigel Calder's Cruising Handbook. The offshore course is a 12 day trip to Bermuda from Rock Hall, MD. Their choice of Island Packet yachts aside, I am confident that they will teach me well. I have already taken the first two ASA courses from them. The add a lot of material to the ASA text and take twice the usual time. I took the bareboat (third) ASA course from a school in Florida that is all Hunter boats. The Maryland School asked that I retake the ASA bareboat course from them before progressing through their program.

Several of the points you made in your post reinforce some of the nagging doubts I have about Island Packets. I'm still in the very early stages of my boat search and I have an open mind. Could somebody point me at a reference that would give me an overview of several sailboats including line drawings, interior layout, displacement, etc.?

thanks,
--gray

[CSY Man]

Jeff H:

Jeeez Jeff, ya don't like them IPs do ya?...

Sure would like to hear year detailed comments on the CSY 33s.
(Same short waterline, heavier displacement)

The weight or displacement actually is a bit of a mystery to me:
From the factory it was 15,200 for the CSY 33, but was that empty of all fluids, all minimum equipment (sails, anchors) etc?

Or was it "Typically Equipped"?

On my 1979 33 a lot of gear has been added, plus spares and tools up to the rim, etc, etc, etc.
Last time I hauled, asked the travel-lift operator to look at his strain gauges...He reported 29,000 lbs, but warned that the gauges typically was 15% off either way.
Well, lets call it 20% off, and minus, and the "real" displacement without water, beer, food and folks 23,300 lbs...That is on a 25' water line.
Now lets add 2,000 lbs of people, water, food and stuff and that be over 25K on a short water line...Well, the boat has had its lines upped a couple of times, and now I estimate the waterline to be 27 to 28 feet, mainly due to her sitting deeper...Slightly higher hull speed, but much more wetted surface.

And how does my porky little boat sail...?
Quite well actually when the wind is up around 20 knots or so.
Have a cutter rig with the 2 foresails on Pro-Furl rolelrs. Lots of combos to put up.

At any rate Jeff, would like your comments on the CSY 33, don't hold anything back.....

[Steve Rust]

Jeez CYS Man
If you load that poor boat down with anymore stuff your gonna need a periscope.

Fair winds
Steve R

[Steve Rust]

Jeez CYS Man
If you load that poor boat down with anymore stuff your gonna need a periscope.

Fair winds
Steve R

[CSY Man]

U-Boat..?

Well not quite.
We had her loaded up with provisions for a month when we sailed for the Exuams last year. Yes, she was heavy, but also rock steady in the water.

Since beer is so expensive in the Bahamas, we had at least 7 cases for the skipper and numerous bottles of wine for the admiral. Extra water in addition to the 157 gallons in the tank, extra diesel, Honda genset, 6 tool boxes, etc..Ya get the picture.

At any rate, we actually sailed past 2 boats:

On a Northerly heading we overtook a boat with the same sail configuration and slowly passed 'em..The symbol in their mast was P36. Probably a 36' boat and maybe a Pearson?

Later in the day we passed another one, this one looked like a Cabo Rico 38.
Surprised us as we thought we were the slowest boat in the ocean, but not so.
That cutter rig is good for something.

Also of course is superior seamanship...

[BBWolf]

CSY ..you just totally cracked me up then.

Never expected a discussion involving displacement and how heavy a boat was in the water would to involve the cost of piss at an intended destination

Just a perfect example of some of the important issues boating authors don't address in their cruising guides.

I am learning much here.

[CSY Man]

Yeah Mr. BB, drinks are heavy around here.

The fresh water tank holds 157 gallons, 1100 lbs right there..And then ya add the fun juices....

Well, this thread was really about Island Packets, but sort of died out in that regard.
Could not resist adding my 2 cents here since the IP got slaughtered for being heavy on a short waterline, yet probably much less so than the good old CSY 33.

Talked to many CSY folks and nobody had anything bad to say about the boats, stable, dry, strong safe, etc....Yet I must admit tracking is not great..Takes some fiddling with sail trim all the time to keep here going straight, even then she wanders off course once ya take yer eye of the compass, or yer hands off the wheel.......But she does hold a lot of beer...

[seattle sailor]

OK, how about a Beneteau?
Jeff, you seem to know a lot about boats and I have a question for you. Do you think Beneteau's are ok for extended cruising? How old a boat would you be comfortable with in general if in good condition? My husband and I are experienced racers, and local cruisers, and are about 2 years away from going on an extended cruise, not sure where exactly but plan to be gone for over a year. We keep hearing about IP's, Tartans, etc, etc,there are lots of good cruisers out there, but they are also super expensive for folks who want to have it all and keep the house too. We keep coming back to the Beneteau's--40' or so, fast, sleek and elegant, but I do realize they are "production boats." I'd appreciate any thoughts you have on this, we are really struggling with this decision, and have been looking for about 6 months.

Incidentally, anyone else with an opinion is welcome to weigh in too.
Thanks!

[CSY Man]

Look for a CSY:

They are not as expensive as the IP or the Tartans, but ten times stronger.

[Ex-Calif]

"... find an affordable boat for sailing in your own area and start saving the real money..."

These two tasks are probably mutually exclusive - LOL.

Our plan is to buy a boat that has enough "systems" for us to gain knowledge and experience. A 10hp diesel engine is not that far removed from a 48hp diesel engine for example. Depth sounders, compasses and so on are similar. A DC electric system is a DC electric system. You get the idea.

We will upgrade, maintain and learn on this boat. We will put money in this boat and then someday sell this boat in better condition than when we got it. We don't expect to make any profit but I can see getting our money out of it as well as a couple of years of sailing and a ton of experience.

Then we buy "the" boat. Take care of the basics of a fit out in a compressed time frame and move on board.

I agree with Paul - Buy a learning boat. Especially if the plan is 5 years out. Get something that will meet your 1 week vacation and weekend sailing needs and try to spend less than half the $80k you are planning. Invest the other $40k safely somewhere.

Then when you know a heck of a lot more, sell the interim boat cash out the investments and get a $100k boat.