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Old 26-07-2016, 16:08   #16
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Re: Is this the diamond in the rough?

having previously owned a Peterson 44 for many years, I love the design. You already know that the teak decks are a disaster, but most Taiwan Stainless is very poor. I changed out several chain-plates and all of the chain-plate bolts on mine. The fuel tanks were what is refered to as black iron, and were begining to weep. I was going to cut them up in place to minimize the wood cutting, and reinstall smaller tanks and plumb them together. There were several things I liked about the Formosa, as opposed to the Peterson (different yards). The Formosa actually had a nice bilge sump just aft of the engine. My Peterson had a very shallow sump which was a pain. If the boat has had standing water, make sure the bottom of the bulkheads are not rotten. I dont remember the details, but I thought the Formosa had better chain-plate mounting. If you can stand the huge job ahead of you, it will be a wonderful boat. Best of Luck. ____Grant.
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Old 26-07-2016, 16:37   #17
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Re: Is this the diamond in the rough?

Its a totally personal call. Double your best estimate and you will be much closer. Life is short so if you have the hots for this project then have at it. We have friends that would rather work and have work done on their project boat than sail. As a matter of fact when their boat is near finished they start looking for another. They have the time and money and derive a great deal of pleasure renewing old boats. It is not for everyone but if you have the money, the time and its a pleasure for you to craft plans to restore and do all the due diligence then its probably the right thing for you to do.
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Old 26-07-2016, 16:42   #18
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Re: Is this the diamond in the rough?

Just a rough guess of the cost puts this at around $50,000 to return to good shape, add another 10 to that for the purchase price and at a minimum you are in it at least 60k assuming nothing else is found that needs fixing. If theboat needs additional work, which I would bet a lot that it does you are in it even more.

Figure the 100k asking price means a sail away price of 80k on other boats....

I simply wouldn't risk it. What I would do is offer to take it for free, do the demo work and see what the actual job looks like, then make the decision to either scrap it and sell the bits to cover the demo job, or try to return it to service.

From the pictures you don't just need to fix the teak deck, you need to build an entire new deck. This is a massive project. Figure a normal teak deck problem is 25k this is going to be far more.
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Old 26-07-2016, 16:54   #19
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Re: Is this the diamond in the rough?

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnaclejim View Post
Hi Parothead, I have always loved the Formosas and was going to buy one. Ended up with a custom 52 Vagabond schooner. Also from Tiawan. I love these boats and they are comfortable and tough and plod along pretty well, but if you dont love this boat keep looking. If its been neglected it may not be worth it and it will be a huge investment of time and money I bought mine for 100k It had new rigging, new hull, new engine and electronics and sails in 98. I spent 9 months in a yard in the Chesapeake and another 100k and have cruised far and wide in the last 8 years but still spend a lot on maintenence. Still love the boat but its love not smarts. All the best
Thanks for the feedback. I assume the investments made in the yard were to bring the boat back to your standards?
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Old 26-07-2016, 16:56   #20
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Re: Is this the diamond in the rough?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gjordan View Post
having previously owned a Peterson 44 for many years, I love the design. You already know that the teak decks are a disaster, but most Taiwan Stainless is very poor. I changed out several chain-plates and all of the chain-plate bolts on mine. The fuel tanks were what is refered to as black iron, and were begining to weep. I was going to cut them up in place to minimize the wood cutting, and reinstall smaller tanks and plumb them together. There were several things I liked about the Formosa, as opposed to the Peterson (different yards). The Formosa actually had a nice bilge sump just aft of the engine. My Peterson had a very shallow sump which was a pain. If the boat has had standing water, make sure the bottom of the bulkheads are not rotten. I dont remember the details, but I thought the Formosa had better chain-plate mounting. If you can stand the huge job ahead of you, it will be a wonderful boat. Best of Luck. ____Grant.
Thanks for the info about the stainless and the tanks. The bilge in the Formosa is quite deep. I will take a look at the bulkhead--hadn't thought about the standing water issue there.
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Old 26-07-2016, 16:58   #21
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Re: Is this the diamond in the rough?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
Just a rough guess of the cost puts this at around $50,000 to return to good shape, add another 10 to that for the purchase price and at a minimum you are in it at least 60k assuming nothing else is found that needs fixing. If theboat needs additional work, which I would bet a lot that it does you are in it even more.

Figure the 100k asking price means a sail away price of 80k on other boats....

I simply wouldn't risk it. What I would do is offer to take it for free, do the demo work and see what the actual job looks like, then make the decision to either scrap it and sell the bits to cover the demo job, or try to return it to service.

From the pictures you don't just need to fix the teak deck, you need to build an entire new deck. This is a massive project. Figure a normal teak deck problem is 25k this is going to be far more.
That's an interesting idea. She's strapped for cash and I get the sense she'll do anythign to get out from under the boat. Agree, all the teak has to go. No plans to re-teak (as much as I like the look) but glass and Awlgrip. I assume there will be a bunch of deck repair needed from the rot.
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Old 26-07-2016, 17:00   #22
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Re: Is this the diamond in the rough?

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Its a totally personal call. Double your best estimate and you will be much closer. Life is short so if you have the hots for this project then have at it. We have friends that would rather work and have work done on their project boat than sail. As a matter of fact when their boat is near finished they start looking for another. They have the time and money and derive a great deal of pleasure renewing old boats. It is not for everyone but if you have the money, the time and its a pleasure for you to craft plans to restore and do all the due diligence then its probably the right thing for you to do.
I like the concept of knowing my own boat very well. The plan is to cruise eventually and our "long term" home will be here in Penasco. That's a few years off but I can see sailing away from here after making her our own.
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Old 26-07-2016, 17:13   #23
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Re: Is this the diamond in the rough?

What would have to be done:
1. Remove the deck and reglass underneath
40 hours to remove
40 hours to reglass

2. Rebuild the cabintop (maybe new portlights)
40 hours rebuild
12 portlights at $500 apiece

3. Repair a leak in the stuffing box
10 hours

4. New tanks (friend did his in a Norseman 447 for 60 hours)
40 hours

5. New wiring
100 hours
$500 wire
$500 connectors
$500 circuit breakers
$500 panel

6. Newer sails
$1000 used main
$750 used genoa

7. New running rigging.
20 hours
$2000 material

SO
Labor 290 hours @ $15/hour - $4,390
Material $11,750

Sounds like a real steal!!

Double that price (I too was a professional project manager and have built and rebuilt boats for 40-years) to get to $30,000

How about:
- Import duties
- Mordida
- yard costs
- de-oxidize and rub out
- polish
- wood rework

You would have about $50,000 into the boat

I did two major rebuilds in Mexico and they both came out on price but way behind on schedule. I hired a SAMS surveyor who spoke fluent Spanish to oversee the project and a mechanical engineer who was also a professional welder to supervise all the metal work.

The project came out perfectly except for minor details:

- spelled the boat name wrong when painted onto the transom
- spelled the hailing port wrong
- forgot to put in the gaskets to water proof the windlass and I had to install new windlass motor 18-months later
- thinned the bottom paint so much that it was all worn off 13-months and 2,000 miles later. I had to haul the boat and repaint the entire bottom

IF you can be onsite to supervise every detail AND you know/understand/can inspect the details:
- fiberglass
- wiring
- rigging

then you might make a little money

Let us know how it works out
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Old 26-07-2016, 17:31   #24
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Re: Is this the diamond in the rough?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TacomaSailor View Post
What would have to be done:
1. Remove the deck and reglass underneath
40 hours to remove
40 hours to reglass

2. Rebuild the cabintop (maybe new portlights)
40 hours rebuild
12 portlights at $500 apiece

3. Repair a leak in the stuffing box
10 hours

4. New tanks (friend did his in a Norseman 447 for 60 hours)
40 hours

5. New wiring
100 hours
$500 wire
$500 connectors
$500 circuit breakers
$500 panel

6. Newer sails
$1000 used main
$750 used genoa

7. New running rigging.
20 hours
$2000 material

SO
Labor 290 hours @ $15/hour - $4,390
Material $11,750

Sounds like a real steal!!

Double that price (I too was a professional project manager and have built and rebuilt boats for 40-years) to get to $30,000

How about:
- Import duties
- Mordida
- yard costs
- de-oxidize and rub out
- polish
- wood rework

You would have about $50,000 into the boat

I did two major rebuilds in Mexico and they both came out on price but way behind on schedule. I hired a SAMS surveyor who spoke fluent Spanish to oversee the project and a mechanical engineer who was also a professional welder to supervise all the metal work.

The project came out perfectly except for minor details:

- spelled the boat name wrong when painted onto the transom
- spelled the hailing port wrong
- forgot to put in the gaskets to water proof the windlass and I had to install new windlass motor 18-months later
- thinned the bottom paint so much that it was all worn off 13-months and 2,000 miles later. I had to haul the boat and repaint the entire bottom

IF you can be onsite to supervise every detail AND you know/understand/can inspect the details:
- fiberglass
- wiring
- rigging

then you might make a little money

Let us know how it works out
This is very helpful. Those estimates seem right on from the (endless) internet research I've been doing over the last few days. The point isn't really to make money--it's a boat. The point of any boat we'd purchase is:

1. See the world and have an adventure--in a reliable, safe and comfortable vessel

2. Invest some personal passion and energy into something. I just got my pilot's license in November and though I love to fly (and sail) planes are even more jealous mistresses than boats. Basically I need a project...

3. Although I don't want to make money on the boat I don't want to lose my shirt either. So it's gotta be a real steal with minimal work to be done (I.E work and save and shop later) or something that can be worked over a period of time (Go Big or Go Home!).
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Old 26-07-2016, 17:43   #25
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Re: Is this the diamond in the rough?

So, I just picked up a Westsail 32 for 20 K. I could sail or now but, like every boat, she can use some love. As I sit here making a list to prioritize projects, I'm hoping I don't spend another 20k too friggin fast... Insurance, title transfer and, moving the boat is over 4k just like that. No major restore to do like the one you're looking at. Electronics is another good one. A person could spend thousands just updating those. Solar? My engine seems to run fine but, who knows? Replacing that will skyrocket my budget. So, my two cents is this. The boat market is set up for buyers right now. I'm not sweating cause I got a great deal but, I could have found a boat in the same condition for 35k easy. There was another Westsail in Mexico for 20k and, it was a total turd. If you've been shopping forever and, you just love her then, do it. With all the other projects that one could tackle in a "perfectly good" boat, I'd run from rebuilding a cabin top. I would guess you will find many projects directly under said cabin top... Just be ready for the worst...

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Old 26-07-2016, 18:16   #26
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Re: Is this the diamond in the rough?

"2. Invest some personal passion and energy into something. I just got my pilot's license in November and though I love to fly (and sail) planes are even more jealous mistresses than boats. Basically I need a project..."


Airplanes are an order of magnitude more expensive and time consuming.

A good friend who owned a Cape Dory 30 made a lot of money and had some free time due to his success at work. His boat was just a 1/2 mile from his house. He said "I have time, I have money, I have a pilot's license, so why don't I buy a Cessna 172?"

The airfield was only five minutes from the house and the boat.

Two years later he sold the plane with the comment
"No One has the time to maintain/sail a boat and own/fly an airplane"

This was from a married man with no children whose wife made even more money than did he. She enjoyed the boat and plane as much as my friend.

A 2nd friend here in our marina is a retired PanAm/Delta airline captain with 30+years. He buys and sells newer 36 - 39 foot Beneteaus every other year and lives on them about half the year. Two years ago he decided to BUILD an airplane at his home in Phoenix. He has built three previous planes. He thought he had time to sail and build airplanes. Late last year he sold his Beneteau 375 because he didn't have enough time for boats and planes and the more he worked on the plane, the further away was the completion date.

He is 78 years old and wants to fly it before his completion date. Tough Guy - Late last year he completed the Tour de Tuscon 76-mile bicycle ride.

But, the boat bug is an incurable disease and last weekend he was back over here trying to buy a new 35' Beneteau. He figures a new smaller boat would take less time (just kidding!) - He misses the boat during the Phoenix summers.
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Old 26-07-2016, 18:38   #27
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Re: Is this the diamond in the rough?

I built one boat and just finished restoring another.

Tacoma Sailor on post 23 hit it right on.

I would say go for it, but make sure you BOTH know what you are getting into. Don't try to convince her and likewise, don't be convinced by her, it must be a collective/mutual decision.
Not mentioned is the shape of the boat below the waterline. You don't want many surprises there.
How long has it been for sale? In any case, I would offer $6K and see what happens, you could call it low balling, but you are the one taking the risk - it is entirely yours. As an experienced PM you are good at negotiating and know how to manage risks, right?
Good luck. If you do get it, please keep us posted.
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Old 26-07-2016, 18:45   #28
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Re: Is this the diamond in the rough?

I wouldn't quibble much with Tacoma's numbers, except that the pictures I saw of the deck from below indicate that it isn't just the team that needs to be replaced, there is no core left in the deck. So at most you have two skins holding the entire deck of the boat together. If this is the case, add in a core replace,net job on a 46' boat. That by itself is a massive job.

Assuming the $50k number is correct for everything else, by the time you record the deck.... I just don't see it. You will have as much into this boat as buying another one on the market, that takes a year to complete, and that's assuming nothing else comes to light.

Add a couple of rotten bulkheads, or a rotten stringer, and all bets are off.

Like I said, I could see taking the boat for free, and really tearing it apart for a better estimate of what it would take to fix. But I would have the cash in the bank to drop her off at the dump, and prepared to do so if I found any major currently unaccounted for faults.

The scrap lead in the keel brings you back to neutral on the junking costs, and you might be able to make a buck on the other hardware (engine, transmission, winches, mast, etc).

It's sad to say, but I figure at best a 50/50 chance of this boat ever returning to service economically. Not to say someone won't loose a mint trying to do it.
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Old 26-07-2016, 21:01   #29
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Re: Is this the diamond in the rough?

The other posters on this thread have a good bit of things covered. And it'd be smart to look at the posts which Ann T. Cate mentioned. And this may sting a bit, as it did for me, when I did sat down & compiled this list & tally for myself.

In addition to all of the other advice, consider this as well. If the rebuild goes as planned, & you have a basic boat for $80-100k. Then you'll likely need/want to add an another $50k+ easy, to her in basic gear & cruising equipment in order to be able to jump onboard & head out for the wild blue. And with a boat of that size it's easy for the gear, electrical systems which support it, etc. to tally up at twice that $50k figure.

Nor does any of this cover everything else, such as rebuilding an engine & drive train. A new rudder/rebuilt rudder. Rebuilding the rig, including every fastener on it. An essential task for a boat heading out. Sail inventory updates. Running rigging. Deck hardware. Plumbing. Engine plumbing (exhaust, tankage, fuel systems, water). Electrical. Ground tackle. New paint, which is another 5 digit item. More when you figure in refinishing the entire interior, which the boat will need after the other proposed rebuild(s). Safety gear. Dinghy. Canvas accessories. Galley gear & refit. Navigation. Cushions, curtains, headliner, interior finish, trim & decoration. Plus a few hundred other things, literally.
And it'd be wise to drop the ballast if she has a bolt on keel. Which is covered in another thread in which Minaret is a key player. In that one, the boat's owner had to crack open his retirement accounts to pay for things, on top of the huge amounts of $ spent on the keel fix prior to that.

To get a good picture of what'll go into her, start writing down what goes into each & every system onboard. From top to bottom, stem to stern. Both on that which you need to rebuild, & which a cruising boat needs. As if you do that in detail, you'll come out with a document that's easily closer to 100 pages than to 10.
I know having done it from scratch, as well as reading those of others, including professional designers & boat builders. Many such documents encompass several legal size tomes.

So that in the end, to have yourself a cruising boat, essentially everything onboard, but for the hull will be new. And buying all of that stuff piece by piece, & gallon by gallon, is mucho expensive.

Even Nigel Calder has some "interesting" things to say about boat rebuilds. A Refit Reality Check | Cruising World


PS: IIRC zeehag has a Formosa ketch which she's rebuilt over time, & she'd likely also have good insights into this. As most of the systems on her boat have been upgraded, or rebuilt
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Old 26-07-2016, 23:16   #30
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Re: Is this the diamond in the rough?

The used sails you've priced in will be almost totally useless.
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