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Old 08-03-2016, 05:53   #46
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Re: Is this sailboat worth it? (Our first sailboat)

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Originally Posted by nortonscove View Post
Sorry but I'm in Newfoundland where yes in many small towns in out of the way places you can indeed find seaside vacation or permanent year round homes for that price.
Are you saying you can buy a waterfront home in Newfoundland for $8,000? I did some searches & I couldn't find a vacant waterfront lot for $8,000 let alone an improved parcel. The typical prices appear to be over 100k with a significant number over 300k. Regardless, I think the point is we're hammering the OP over an $8,000 offer which is the price of a cheap used car. If the OP likes the boat enough to make the offer & the survey doesn't turn up any big problems then we should wish him well.
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Old 08-03-2016, 06:10   #47
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Re: Is this sailboat worth it? (Our first sailboat)

Yes indeed I'm telling you that. You won't find these on kijiji where real estate agents in the larger centres treat it like their website but they are there. In fact a company called The Old Saltbox company has made a nice job of buying them up in remote fishing villages and renting them. They have had great success doing so. My guess would be most sell for less than 10k. My first house we had gotten for $2200 cdn when moving home from Halifax a few years ago. My present house was 10k with an old general store that my wife has restored and made into a non toxic print shop. I've dozens of friends from the mainland Canada and US that have done the same.
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Old 08-03-2016, 06:44   #48
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Re: Is this sailboat worth it? (Our first sailboat)

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Originally Posted by nortonscove View Post
Yes indeed I'm telling you that. You won't find these on kijiji where real estate agents in the larger centres treat it like their website but they are there. In fact a company called The Old Saltbox company has made a nice job of buying them up in remote fishing villages and renting them. They have had great success doing so. My guess would be most sell for less than 10k. My first house we had gotten for $2200 cdn when moving home from Halifax a few years ago. My present house was 10k with an old general store that my wife has restored and made into a non toxic print shop. I've dozens of friends from the mainland Canada and US that have done the same.
That's amazing. $8,000 for a home that rents for $1,000 a week is quite a return. And now back to our regularly scheduled programming.
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Old 08-03-2016, 08:27   #49
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Re: Is this sailboat worth it? (Our first sailboat)

MikeandMichelle:

I'm also in Vancouver. A '75 Rawson 30 in the local market should be obtainable for less than $5K. They are basically good boats, but there is no market for them any more, and any money you put into one will be "sunk cost", i.e. you must be willing to walk away from it, because you will never recover it.

In consequence, if you have $5K for the purchase, $5K for the necessary - and I mean NECESSARY - equipment plus 5K for moorage fees for each of, say, 3 years, for a total expenditure of 25 grand over three years, your hobby will "only" have cost you $8,333 per year. Only you can know if your budget can tolerate that.

You will want to consider carefully what alternative pleasures life affords for that amount of money.

Drop me a PM and we can arrange to meet in TrentePieds, maybe on the Easter weekend.

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Old 08-03-2016, 09:06   #50
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Re: Is this sailboat worth it? (Our first sailboat)

Money is a tool, if this boat will bring you some pleasure over the next few years then it's a good use of the money.
Yes, I'm sure you could have gotten a better deal, or a better boat for the price, but when. Between time and money, you can make more money, can't make more time!
If you get it, enjoy it, if not keep looking. To me it's more about getting out there and sailing. That puts a bigger smile on my face then the deal I got.
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Old 08-03-2016, 09:54   #51
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Re: Is this sailboat worth it? (Our first sailboat)

Boy, the ****'s getting deep on this thread.
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Old 08-03-2016, 10:08   #52
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Re: Is this sailboat worth it? (Our first sailboat)

I don't 8k as a problem at all for that Rawson. Although I probably would have trie lower price first offewr. Assuming it surveys well. Try installing a Yanmar like that for $8k. It's a low cost, sturdy boat that can take you anywhere. Yes it's an old boat and you can expect a bunch of maintenance. That pretty much applies to any boat over 7-8 years old though. That boat may not even have cored decks to worry about, I cant remember what year they started coring the decks.
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Old 08-03-2016, 11:13   #53
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Re: Is this sailboat worth it? (Our first sailboat)

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Originally Posted by MikeAndMichelle View Post
Hello!

My girlfriend and I are looking for our first sailboat, and we've come across a 1975 Rawson 30. They're asking $14K. The broker said the owner is moving to the UK very soon and wants the boat gone asap. It's pretty barebones.

New diesel engine 2004-ish (previous owner).
New standing rigging in 2012 (current owner).

The owner neglected it a bit.
  • It needs a new headsail (current one is very mildewy); Mainsail seems fine.
  • V-berth has some leaks from the bowspirit that needs to be recaulked (view photo below).
  • Needs a couple new electronics; needs navigation lights (didn't see any)
  • Needs all new safety equipment (fire extinguisher, flares, radar reflector, etc.)
  • Needs new deck painting.
  • Needs new bottom cleaning and painting.



No delamination or soft spots could be found.

There are Rawson 30s on Yachtworld in much better condition for near the same price.

I don't think this is worth anywhere near $14K. And would this make for a good first boat? (We know they're a bit slow, we're okay with that.)

What do you all think?
What other responders may not be considering is that the comparators have 40 year old engines, and this one doesn't. If it has a proper diesel inboard and others have an atomic 4 gas, or a 40 year old sail drive, this one is not overpriced at all. A 3YM20 install (by someone else) on one of these other boats will be at least $14K.

Most important things to consider when shopping for a sailboat:
1. Hull and deck integrity
2. Engine
3. Sail inventory.

Any one of these things if lacking is a $15k touch on their own. Everything else is incremental reasoning to choose one over another.
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Old 08-03-2016, 11:28   #54
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Re: Is this sailboat worth it? (Our first sailboat)

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
I don't 8k as a problem at all for that Rawson. Although I probably would have trie lower price first offewr. Assuming it surveys well. Try installing a Yanmar like that for $8k. It's a low cost, sturdy boat that can take you anywhere. Yes it's an old boat and you can expect a bunch of maintenance. That pretty much applies to any boat over 7-8 years old though. That boat may not even have cored decks to worry about, I cant remember what year they started coring the decks.
I think that from the pictures of the overhead you might be right about the decks. That would be a big relief. Repairing cored decks can be a big job. Hopefully the OP gets a good survey so there's no surprises.
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Old 12-03-2016, 09:02   #55
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Re: Is this sailboat worth it? (Our first sailboat)

Remember this: boats are like icebergs. The stuff you see that needs to be fixed is only 20% of the things that really need to be fixed. So, I would be very, very cautious. My suggestion is to walk away. This ain't no bargain. Fixing stuff is incredibly expensive, because all the parts are expensive, and figuring out how to do the stuff is expensive.

Before buying, be sure to have a survey.
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Old 13-03-2016, 01:05   #56
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Re: Is this sailboat worth it? (Our first sailboat)

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Originally Posted by Chuck Hawley View Post
I would contemplate whether you want a 30' sailboat with a PHRF rating around 240? While I appreciate that Rawsons may be seaworthy, they are really slow, and there must be 1,000 similarly priced boats that rate 180. That's a minute a mile penalty on the Rawson, for every mile you sail.

I'd look at some 1970s to 1980s sturdy little boats like Cal 2-30s, Yankee 30s, older C&Cs, and so forth. What about a Ranger 33?
We’re looking for a tough, offshore-capable boat that can be lived on and be taken on very long-term offshore-ish voyages later on (like 3-or-whatever-plus years later on in the future), ideally without a spade as we’d probably snap it off. And to add to that, under $15K initial purchase price, and in BC, Canada. We might as well be looking for unicorns, eh? Lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lizzy Belle View Post
Usually, you include the conditions such as sea-trail, survey etc. in your offer. You did include the sea trail and survey condition, I assume? usually I'd say a survey is probably not worth the cost on an $8k boat, but in this case, I'd seriously consider it before buying.
We’d definitely get a survey - at the very least for the learning experience. But on a boat this age, we’d definitely get one. We didn’t include those terms, no, we thought that was assumed - it’d be like buying a car without taking it for a test drive first, we thought that was just a given. But we will from now on.

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Originally Posted by Lizzy Belle View Post
Not sure about the details in this case (offer made to owner directly, used brokers etc.) or how it legally works in the US…
We’re in BC, Canada. Although we don’t like going through brokers, this one is through a broker.

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Originally Posted by Lizzy Belle View Post
I'm a little confused, to be honest. You say you guys are 'terrified' of buying a boat that needs a lot of work and $, but you make an offer on the one boat you found that needs both - after you yourselves noticed other boats of the same make, model and asking price are in MUCH better shape. You then ask here (smart!) but make an offer on the boat before reading the replies? [B]ut what made you decide this boat is "the one" for you guys, and how did you calculate the $8K? What do you think the boat will have cost you when she's refitted?
We’re not afraid of the work - we’re going to try to do most things ourselves - if not the first time, then the second time and beyond, after learning how to do it (i.e. painting, fibreglass repair, re-rigging, engine work, etc). I have a construction background, so I’m okay with that stuff. We’re - as I imagine everyone would be - are just worried about it needed far too much work than what we can afford - like $10K+ in repairs. That’s why we asked here, and done research on what problems Rawsons tend to have, and made a list of what needs to be repaired and how much they’d cost. So far it looks like we could afford this boat and the maintenance, assuming the sails are okay.

We would definitely think this one is “the one” if it had been maintained better over the years and wasn’t leaking, etc. We read a lot about them, sure they’re slower, but they’d make decent comfortable liveaboards, they’d be safe(r) in rougher weather, a few have circumnavigated. There aren’t a lot of boats around BC, Canada in our $15K price range that meet these requirements. We don’t believe in a “the one”, we believe in a “good enough to get the job done”. Otherwise we’ll be looking till we’re 60.

We had a few replies on the thread before we made an offer. We found other Rawsons online for comparison, and a couple people mentioned on here and other sites how much they bought and sold theirs, so we had a general idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noylddot View Post
I just did a quick check and there are several cheaper and in better condition Rawson 30s out there for sale.
How close were they to Vancouver? I think those ones were located a little too far away from us. We don’t have a car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noylddot View Post
Is your heart set on a Rawson? There are hundreds of 30 foot sailboats of all types out there in your price range for sale.
We’re not set on any boat. Anything that meets our requirements and that we can afford we will consider. There aren’t many sailboats around BC, Canada in our price range of $15K that are built or appropriate for long-term offshore-ish sailing (after a few years), without a spade rudder (we’d probably break it off), with enough headroom (sorry Albin Vega 27). Most of them are light racer-cruisers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snort View Post
I'd run all over that boat with a moisture meter and something to hammer with.
I've never done that before. Wouldn't it take some time for me to learn the difference in sounds? Or will I be able to instantly tell while I'm tapping away?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scout 30 View Post
If the OP likes the boat enough to make the offer & the survey doesn't turn up any big problems then we should wish him well.
The owner didn't accept our offer for $8K, the broker said the owner said "it needed to be closer to the asking price". Gonna negotiate a bit and ask if they have anything that says it’s not balsa cored or not, and reply back tomorrow. Offshore-capable boats in our price range are so rare around here that we might as well go after it and try.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scout 30 View Post
... And now back to our regularly scheduled programming.
There was like a complete 360 in the topic on my other thread. I'm convinced everyone on this site has ADD lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrentePieds View Post
A '75 Rawson 30 in the local market should be obtainable for less than $5K. They are basically good boats, but there is no market for them any more, and any money you put into one will be "sunk cost", i.e. you must be willing to walk away from it, because you will never recover it.
$5K even with new rigging and newer engine? Aren’t new engines like $7000 or something? He has a receipt from Pro-Tech for like $4000 for the new rigging, too. Sailboats - especially these older niche ones - are not investments, we know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrentePieds View Post
In consequence, if you have $5K for the purchase, $5K for the necessary - and I mean NECESSARY - equipment plus 5K for moorage fees for each of, say, 3 years, for a total expenditure of 25 grand over three years, your hobby will "only" have cost you $8,333 per year. Only you can know if your budget can tolerate that.
Our budget for the purchase is $15K or less, then around $5K for repairs/maintenance. Things aren’t set in stone yet, but we’d stick it at the cheapest marina we can find or in False Creek/Deep Cove/wherever till we found something. We would be living on this sailboat full-time eventually, so it’d be our home and hobby. $8333/year to own your home doesn’t sound too bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris mac View Post
Yes, I'm sure you could have gotten a better deal, or a better boat for the price, but when. Between time and money, you can make more money, can't make more time!
That’s very true, I never thought of it like that before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by carlheintz View Post
My suggestion is to walk away. This ain't no bargain. Fixing stuff is incredibly expensive, because all the parts are expensive, and figuring out how to do the stuff is expensive.
It has new rigging and a newer engine. I seen marine paint for like $100/gallon; approximately how much is needed to paint a deck? Navigation lights, depth sounder, and safety equipment don’t see to be that much. I think the headsail might be okay, just needs a good cleaning. Not sure if we could do the bottom cleaning and painting on our own, though, maybe. Assuming the deck isn’t balsa cored (I don’t think, but I’m going to find out), wouldn’t it be just unbolting the bowsprit and re-sealing or something? It wasn’t noticeably soft around the area.
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Old 13-03-2016, 03:43   #57
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Re: Is this sailboat worth it? (Our first sailboat)

Add a few hundred for things like a second hand dinghy, knife and forks, pots and pans, gas and fluffy cushions for the missus. If you are PNW you will need good sleeping bags and a couple of fluffy throws.

Also since you are on the NW corner of a continent you should have some good tides to dry out and out another coat of antifoul on. If the boat is out of the water do it now before it is launched.
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Old 13-03-2016, 04:20   #58
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pirate Re: Is this sailboat worth it? (Our first sailboat)

Okay.. now everyone has thrown in their 5cents I figure I'll add mine..
You seem to have your priorities in order.. and receipts for some pricey but important work done and.. from what I can make out they are solid glass hulls.
I understand well the constraints of a tight budget as apart from a handful most of my boats were between £1000 and £4500.. but the 21ftrs took me safely to Portugal.. and the 30ftrs to and around the Med.
Sailed with care and consideration most any boat will look after you and I'd say she stronger than most Bendy Toys of today..
Only you can balance the odds on this.. there's advice flowing from folks whose knowledge and experience you do not know.. so pick out the seemingly intelligent.. then maybe Google their Avatars and check out other posts for consistency of knowledge.. real life experience.. or Wiki cut and pastes..
Most work on FG is way easier than steel or wood and anti-fouling/deck painting can be done in a week.. including the prep.
If you do not have this Rawson Group.. here's a link.. talk to folks who own and sail them..
Rawson 30 Sailboat Owners | YachtPals.com

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Old 13-03-2016, 07:08   #59
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Re: Is this sailboat worth it? (Our first sailboat)

Just recapping for myself:

Offer was $8k, no mention of a survey. Offer was refused by owner - needs to be closer to the asking price.
How does that add up to asking about a sea trail? Did you actually offer more then $8k?

Quote:
We would definitely think this one is “the one” if it had been maintained better over the years and wasn’t leaking, etc. We read a lot about them, sure they’re slower, but they’d make decent comfortable liveaboards, they’d be safe(r) in rougher weather, a few have circumnavigated. There aren’t a lot of boats around BC, Canada in our $15K price range that meet these requirements. We don’t believe in a “the one”, we believe in a “good enough to get the job done”. Otherwise we’ll be looking till we’re 60.
Not buying the first one you might be able to afford and looking until you're 60 ... Maybe just give it one more year, to look at more boats and learn?
Looks like you're going for the first boat that's in a convenient location and under $15k to buy (tho this one will be a lot more before you're finished).

Quote:
We don’t have a car.
Neither do I - don't even have a licence. Still, I manage to get to boats in all kinds of corners of the country, and some outside of the country, usually where there's no public transport anywhere near. Takes some doing, but you're either looking for the best boat you can buy, or the one that's conveniently located ...

I've learned that the best boats & deals somehow are always somewhere far away, in towns I've never even heard of and that'll take me a full day just to get there

Quote:
Most of them are light racer-cruisers.
Like this one? Would you consider a boat with these specs?

Quote:
I seen marine paint for like $100/gallon; approximately how much is needed to paint a deck? Navigation lights, depth sounder, and safety equipment don’t see to be that much. I think the headsail might be okay, just needs a good cleaning. Not sure if we could do the bottom cleaning and painting on our own, though, maybe.
Not sure about Canadian prices; only know the Dutch ones

Painting a deck is *much* harder then the hull and/or below the waterline. At least, if you don't want it to look like crap. There are so many boats out there that you can tell are painted just looking from a distance ... But a lot of people don't care, it seems, as it is too much work to do it right.

A crap paint job on the hull (thank goodness they only painted the hull, deck etc is still original) is one of the reasons I bought my boat so cheap. Tough market anyway for boats under 35-40', and one of a lesser known make that looks bad? I paid less then $8k .

The hull needs to be redone, I'm hiring someone to do the sanding (sorry, not sure what the English is for taking off old paint and prepping the hull) and then a friend will do the actual painting - he's good at that, and in return I help him out with some stuff that his boat needs.

Grand total of crappy to beautiful hull: about € 150 for not doing the prepping and sanding down the hull myself (did that a few times. HATE HATE HATE it), about € 150 for 2C hull paint above the waterline (could spend less but I want striping so 2 colors it is) and about €350 below the waterline.
And this is actually expensive, because I'm taking off everything and rebuild it with decent systems this time. I won't be hauling out again for a few years, hopefully. Living on a boat that's on the hard .. it s*cks.

Not touching anything above the hull - looks good enough, will only get worse if I do a half-a$$ed job - as in, not in a "hangar", not taking off every single cleat, rigging etc. etc. Just too much of a pain in the butt and too expensive.

If I were you guys, I'd giveTrentePieds posts some serious thought and contact him:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrentePieds View Post
MikeandMichelle:

I'm also in Vancouver. A '75 Rawson 30 in the local market should be obtainable for less than $5K. They are basically good boats, but there is no market for them any more, and any money you put into one will be "sunk cost", i.e. you must be willing to walk away from it, because you will never recover it.

Drop me a PM and we can arrange to meet in TrentePieds, maybe on the Easter weekend.
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Old 13-03-2016, 07:56   #60
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Re: Is this sailboat worth it? (Our first sailboat)

OP, If they rejected your 8K offer that could be a blessing in disguise, make them wait a bit then offer them something more, WITH the condition of a survey and water trial. This will leave the door open to negotiations after the survey/sea trial and not lock you into your offer. Be there when the surveyor looks at the boat, and see what he thinks about the leaky v-berth and the new engine and rigging, he could have a very different opinion on these selling points, and with his report you might be able to renegotiate below 8K, and if the owner doesn't budge you can always walk away! Chances are if they are really moving back to the UK they will probably call you back once you walk.

Good luck
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