Is the Market Really this Bad ?

[Doodles]

Originally Posted by Dan_78

About the market... It is interesting to watch some boats over time listed on Yacht World and notice the price go down, go down some more and a little more.... A couple times, I've seen listings go up, only to go down again. Unless actively watching the listings, can't really tell the history of the listing from price changes or how long they've been listed.
Plenty to go see.

You need to find someone (most brokers) with a subscription to the commerical version of YW, which is BoatWizard. There when you pull up a boat listing it tells you when it was originally list, original listing price and the current price and when it was marked down to that.

[youmeandthed]

Or... I know this may sound crazy... Ask. If it's available to any broker, why will the listing broker lie about it. Where it gets harder is when you have to ask an owner directly, but then it's pretty easy to tell if their lying.

[Kettlewell]

This is a bit OT, but someone up the thread mentioned how there might be import duties due, etc. if the boat is brought into the USA, and then there might be VAT issues if it is brought back the UK. I have looked online at a lot of boats for sale in exotic locales and they often are very temptingly priced, but when one digs a little further there are often complicating and possibly expensive issues like uncertain ownership, unclear titles, lack of taxes paid someplace, liens but no way of finding out about them, etc. etc. Sure, some folks who are resourceful can probably sort all these things out and find a deal, but I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the time you get what you pay for. By the way, I'm not accusing these folks of any of this stuff--it may be a great deal for all I know, but buyer beware.

[Mr B]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

This is a bit OT, but someone up the thread mentioned how there might be import duties due, etc. if the boat is brought into the USA, and then there might be VAT issues if it is brought back the UK. I have looked online at a lot of boats for sale in exotic locales and they often are very temptingly priced, but when one digs a little further there are often complicating and possibly expensive issues like uncertain ownership, unclear titles, lack of taxes paid someplace, liens but no way of finding out about them, etc. etc. Sure, some folks who are resourceful can probably sort all these things out and find a deal, but I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the time you get what you pay for. By the way, I'm not accusing these folks of any of this stuff--it may be a great deal for all I know, but buyer beware.

Thats all in the Bill of Sale,
Freehold,

[Kettlewell]

The Bill of Sale doesn't absolve the new owner of liens, lack of taxes paid, illegal ownership, etc. This is one reason why here in the USA (and I'm sure Australia has something similar) banks prefer to lend on USCG documented vessels that have a clear ownership trail and all liens, etc. can be traced. When buying a boat anywhere from anyone be sure the paperwork is correct.

[jostalli]

If you purchase a boat in europe attorneys are required to complete the transaction. I was told it is because of the issues you describe. This is of course in addition to the broker commission.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by jostalli

If you purchase a boat in europe attorneys are required to complete the transaction. I was told it is because of the issues you describe. This is of course in addition to the broker commission.

Rubbish....
I've bought boats in a bar over a pint... and sold em the same way.. UK, Spain and Portugal... oh and last year in France for a friend...
One thing to remember... with a house the debt goes with you... with a boat... it goes with the boat...
and the seller pays the commision... if its with a broker.
However... the only time I bought a boat in the USofA I made damn sure we got it notarized by his bank manager... seeing as most loans are paid off by bank installment...

[Randyonr3]

Originally Posted by Freerider

I can't understand how people can put this kind of money into a refit, are they including some insane boat yard prices? Are they paying the Oyster boat yard to do the work?

I'm refitting a 35' right now, no boat yard fees and I'm doing all the work myself. I just can't see how its possible that I could put $100 000 into it or why I would want to try. I'm thinking $30 000 max, including a $10 000 engine and $3500 wind vane.

Depends on what you do and how large the boat is.. we purchased ours just 9 years ago for just over 100k.. in the first re-fit in the first 6 months we spent another 80k..
bought a new set of sails... a main, fore-sail, stay-sail, and a kite.. and got a good deal at just over 21k, the new electronics was just over 20k with the pactor lll and the weather fax along with new radios VHF and SSB. the plotter and sonar..and the auto helm (installed it myself)
The only thing we paid a yard to do was the rigging and the keel bolts..
a year later we added solar , a dodger and bimini with 1 and 1/4 inch stainless, new gally and reefer.. did it all myself anothe 30k
and here we are 9 years later and more than a few thousand miles under our keel and we're doing it again.. this time i'm installing a new sole and will be buying new sails befor the years is out,,and new water tanks... probably another 30k.....
It all depends on what you want and how you want to live your life..
For us, its our home and and we dont mind spending money on it.. and I very seldom have the work outsorced.....

[Mexdon]

Originally Posted by Randyonr3

Depends on what you do and how large the boat is.. we purchased ours just 9 years ago for just over 100k.. in the first re-fit in the first 6 months we spent another 80k..
bought a new set of sails... a main, fore-sail, stay-sail, and a kite.. and got a good deal at just over 21k, the new electronics was just over 20k with the pactor lll and the weather fax along with new radios VHF and SSB. the plotter and sonar..and the auto helm (installed it myself)
The only thing we paid a yard to do was the rigging and the keel bolts..
a year later we added solar , a dodger and bimini with 1 and 1/4 inch stainless, new gally and reefer.. did it all myself anothe 30k
and here we are 9 years later and more than a few thousand miles under our keel and we're doing it again.. this time i'm installing a new sole and will be buying new sails befor the years is out,,and new water tanks... probably another 30k.....
It all depends on what you want and how you want to live your life..
For us, its our home and and we dont mind spending money on it.. and I very seldom have the work outsorced.....

Agree with your philosophy. The money you have put in and will put in has nothing to do with the market price: once again boat math X+X=X. the money you spend is for your benefit and not the future purchaser. The purchaser looks at the yacht, its age and makes a judgement on what he is prepared to pay. In todays market that is considerably less than the owner hopes for.

At the moment I am a buyer.

[Freerider]

Originally Posted by Randyonr3

Depends on what you do and how large the boat is.. we purchased ours just 9 years ago for just over 100k.. in the first re-fit in the first 6 months we spent another 80k..
bought a new set of sails... a main, fore-sail, stay-sail, and a kite.. and got a good deal at just over 21k, the new electronics was just over 20k with the pactor lll and the weather fax along with new radios VHF and SSB. the plotter and sonar..and the auto helm (installed it myself)
The only thing we paid a yard to do was the rigging and the keel bolts..
a year later we added solar , a dodger and bimini with 1 and 1/4 inch stainless, new gally and reefer.. did it all myself anothe 30k
and here we are 9 years later and more than a few thousand miles under our keel and we're doing it again.. this time i'm installing a new sole and will be buying new sails befor the years is out,,and new water tanks... probably another 30k.....
It all depends on what you want and how you want to live your life..
For us, its our home and and we dont mind spending money on it.. and I very seldom have the work outsorced.....

Wow, 20k on electronics and I was thinking 2k, I guess if you have the cash there always something to spend it on. Personally I'd like to get some cruising done by the time I'm 30 so there's just no way its happening if I spend that type of $$ on a refit.

As for the topic of this thread, I wonder if this is just a dip in the market, or just the beginning of the end for the glory days. Maybe when all the boomers are too old to sail and the younger generation is just trying to survive, they'll be some real sweet deals on those abandoned Oysters I seem to have a thing for..

[avb3]

So consensus is?

• *bad market
• *good boats sell
• *good boats with equipment sell faster
• *mediocre or bad boats hope to capture the "project boat" crowd
• *don't even think of over pricing your boat if you want to sell it
• don't be too far from your customer

Damn I wish my house was sold; so much to look at and get out there.

[Lagoon4us]

Originally Posted by Mexdon

Agree with your philosophy. The money you have put in and will put in has nothing to do with the market price: once again boat math X+X=X. the money you spend is for your benefit and not the future purchaser. The purchaser looks at the yacht, its age and makes a judgement on what he is prepared to pay. In todays market that is considerably less than the owner hopes for.

At the moment I am a buyer.

Also agree with your point of view, in our search for our boat we found probably 6 that were at similar value to each other, some had more gear than others whilst some were not maintained compared to the others.
Finally the choice became the best maintained, most loaded at the lowest negotiated price, it mattered not whether money had recently been spent if the maintenance was there.
avb3 so true sellers now get an offer not sure if another is to follow so there's nervousness out there for sure.
Boats, flash cars and holiday houses are the first luxuries to go in any downward direction economy. The flash boats undermine the average boats yadda yadda yadda....
Sold the farm! Loving the search......Cheers

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Doodles

You need to find someone (most brokers) with a subscription to the commerical version of YW, which is BoatWizard. There when you pull up a boat listing it tells you when it was originally list, original listing price and the current price and when it was marked down to that.

Option B: follow the quotations/askings you are interested in, do it for a year or so, and build your own database. Can be done. And some guessing will be out of the equation.

Access to that YM historical is fine when you are dealing in many types of boats. But when it is a specific type, you can DIY.

BTW when doing such an exercise you will notice many interesting things. Like the spread, mean, deviation, volatility, etc. of the prices. All this elements tell stories about the market and about the specific boat type.

b.

[Sand crab]

I wonder if cats are doing better than monos? While trolling the multihull brokers sites I notice lots of boats that are under contract or sold. I just don't think many cats are selling for half of asking price. I suspect the price on tris is more volatile because so many are home built.
Way back on this thread a gentleman with a big one off A-frame cat in New Zealand made a sales pitch for his boat. Nothing wrong with that. I posted about a similar sized one off boat that was listed for much less money and that started a good conversation about the value of boats and internet window shopping which we all do. (I still am addicted to boat porn but I'm now doing the 10 step process) Anyway, the cheaper boat is now sold and it wasn't listed much longer than a couple of months. Not sure about the A-frame rig. You just got to price it right.

[Sand crab]

Update: That A-frame cat is still up for sale. BTW I'm not putting it down. It's a nice one. And I may have posted it in this thread.
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ion-46079.html