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Old 13-02-2012, 15:09   #271
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Re: Is the Market Really this Bad ?

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Originally Posted by Dan_78 View Post
Well, the broker even sounded like the boat was overpriced and mentioned wanting to talk to the owner about lowering the asking price.

Of course, much would go into the boat over the years. Although I'm mostly looking for a boat that can be sailed right away and get the experience on the water, I am almost considering getting something that needs some work. I guess it depends on the boat I find. Lots to look at in the meantime.
If the broker is trying to get the owner to drop the price, you're probably right about the boat being overpriced. I ran across a couple of situations where the boat owner put the boat on the market at too high a price because his/her spouse wanted the boat sold, but the seller didn't. That's not a boat you're going to get a good deal on. At least, not until it's getting sold during the divorce settlement.

If you're not someone with a track record of doing significant repairs on stuff, fixing soft decks is probably not a good place to start. As a first time owner, learning to do the preventive maintenance and easy upgrades will give you plenty of things to fix and learn on -- they are boats after all.
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Old 13-02-2012, 15:16   #272
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Re: Is the Market Really this Bad ?

+1 on Casey's book. Can also be downloaded on a tablet.
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Old 13-02-2012, 15:18   #273
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Re: Is the Market Really this Bad ?

Agree there, we found during our search we would note an identical boat for at least 25% more, just had to be a marriage/partnership issue....
i'm finding an offer around 20% less seems to get the negotiations going but only if truly interested and only if you see a disparity in the pricing compared to others on the market.

You have a second chance for further negotiations once your survey has been done i guess.
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Old 13-02-2012, 15:25   #274
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Re: Is the Market Really this Bad ?

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I think it would be far more correct to say that SOME 25-30 year old fiberglass boats will have such problems. Decks are usually more susceptible than hulls especially if care has not been taken to properly seal hardware attachment points. In any case a good survey or even an inspection by a potential owner will reveal such problems.

My guess is that most boats that old will be largely free of such problems as long as they have not been abused or neglected.

...thankyou...+1
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Old 13-02-2012, 15:46   #275
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Re: Is the Market Really this Bad ?

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+1 on Casey's book. Can also be downloaded on a tablet.
Right, I just noticed that. A kindle copy will be my second, much easier to take along when traveling. Same for Calder's books which are also available in Kindle.
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Old 13-02-2012, 15:59   #276
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Re: Is the Market Really this Bad ?

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Agree there, we found during our search we would note an identical boat for at least 25% more, just had to be a marriage/partnership issue....
i'm finding an offer around 20% less seems to get the negotiations going but only if truly interested and only if you see a disparity in the pricing compared to others on the market.

You have a second chance for further negotiations once your survey has been done i guess.
Right, that's why offers are made "subject to survey". Last time I bought a boat it was directly from the seller, no broker involved. Seller was up front about a specific problem that required a major repair, which helped us to have a good straightforward understanding with one another, and we negotiated to a fair price. When the subject of a survey came up, he expressed some concern that I would use the survey to try to reduce the already low price even further than what we had agreed, so I agreed that I would only seek to reduce the price if the survey found any major items.

Sure enough the survey did find a couple of additional problems that were major, namely some blisters and a rudder that required rebuilding. So we renegotiated to a new lower price to allow for those repairs.

It was really not a bad experience at all. Needless to say, did not miss the broker and his 6-10% cut.
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Old 13-02-2012, 17:12   #277
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Re: Is the Market Really this Bad ?

So this report got me thinking. In the US we have been buying new 30' and greater sailboats at a clip of about 1,000 a year (50% domestic and 50% imports) for the last several years. I couldn't find the data but I bet that number wasn't much smaller in 1970, say 500 boats. So over the last forty years 20,000 to 40,000 new sailboats found a home in US marinas. Does that seem about right?

So here is my premise - The majority of these sailboats are still around today. This means the inventory of sailboats is increasing every year whereas the number of buyers has flattened off and in fact could decline as baby boomers age. This is the market condition that will drive prices lower and lower and I doubt things in the US will turn around soon. Not unless sailing becomes much more popular with younger generations.

The one bright spot for selling used boats in the next ten to twenty years will probably be China. Several thousand miles of coast land and an emerging upperclass with western tastes.
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Old 13-02-2012, 18:05   #278
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Re: Is the Market Really this Bad ?

...good grief!!!
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Old 13-02-2012, 19:08   #279
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Re: Is the Market Really this Bad ?

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...good grief!!!
sellers grief, buyers relief, if both have the belief

The reality is that are are a lot of boats around, many have negative value. Because there are some buyers around that belive they can defy the realities of the cost of repairs and upgrades. They help to drag prices down of the smaller number of boats who are for that require no more than cosmetic work to meet the individual tastes and purposes of the buyers. As a buyer my love for these people who go into the project boat situation blindfolded is enhanced by those who put money and time into important systems and run out of resources before finishing. Unfortunatly too many start with the cosmetics before they deal with the basics.

Based on my purchase of 2 sail boat in the last 10 years and my current search there are a number of themes that reoccour in why some sellers refuse to deal with the realites of the market for second hand boats. A lot of sellers refuse to face the reality that buying the boat was the worst economic decission that they have made. Its not only admitting mistakes to them selves but also partners who may not have been all that suportive in the first place. OK so thats not a popular point of view to express on CF.

Personaly i hope the situation gets much worse in the next year but the is a total selfish position based on the fact that i am a buyer
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Old 13-02-2012, 19:14   #280
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Re: Is the Market Really this Bad ?

...(good grief)...I was relating to the dooms day predictions of the China Elites buying all our plastic boats. Reading some of these posts help me to move up my departure date by at least a year.
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Old 13-02-2012, 19:20   #281
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Re: Is the Market Really this Bad ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by drewcwsj View Post
So this report got me thinking. In the US we have been buying new 30' and greater sailboats at a clip of about 1,000 a year (50% domestic and 50% imports) for the last several years. I couldn't find the data but I bet that number wasn't much smaller in 1970, say 500 boats. So over the last forty years 20,000 to 40,000 new sailboats found a home in US marinas. Does that seem about right?

So here is my premise - The majority of these sailboats are still around today. This means the inventory of sailboats is increasing every year whereas the number of buyers has flattened off and in fact could decline as baby boomers age. This is the market condition that will drive prices lower and lower and I doubt things in the US will turn around soon. Not unless sailing becomes much more popular with younger generations.

The one bright spot for selling used boats in the next ten to twenty years will probably be China. Several thousand miles of coast land and an emerging upperclass with western tastes.
This makes sense to me, except for the China part. I've noticed here in Thailand that those with money and western tastes don't like to buy "used" anything. It's got to be new so I don't see the Chinese coming over and buying up our old 20+ year old sailboats, fixing them up with new gear and sailing them back to China to use as coastal cruisers.
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Old 13-02-2012, 19:43   #282
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Re: Is the Market Really this Bad ?

All Chinese are extremely reluctant to buy anything used because to do that means you are poor. For them social status is huge.

Watch their choice of housing. They love brand new but even if they buy an old place will spend an absolute bomb fixing it up. They never buy places with heritage orders on them.

They are the same with their cars. You'll never see a Chinese in a '63 Studebaker.
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Old 13-02-2012, 19:50   #283
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Re: Is the Market Really this Bad ?

On Sunday morning at the Van Boat Show the only folks standing in line (about 35 of them) to see the mega yacht were asian folks. That said, an asian couple and their young boy joined us on the little martin 24 for a free morning sail. He seemed into it but I'm not sure it was her thing.
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Old 13-02-2012, 20:13   #284
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Re: Is the Market Really this Bad ?

I went skiing in Japan,

They do the same thing, This years model only,

I bought some of the previous years gear, Brand new for a Pittance,

The Japanese wont touch last years gear,

Second hand, Forget it, Just throw it away,

And they do have the money for the latest Gear,
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Old 13-02-2012, 22:16   #285
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Re: Is the Market Really this Bad ?

Most of my wives were Asian...oh the stories I could tell about that culture!
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