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Old 11-01-2011, 06:42   #31
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Originally Posted by At sea View Post
Or better still, drop it on a flat bed trailer and scram outa there. (try doing that with a 7' fin).
Yeah, 28 foot would fit nicely on the back of a lorry.........whether transcontinental or simply accross an island to high / cheap ground.

Although I still won't say to OP "go for it" if cheap enough ($1k?) and also fits into his intended use well, could maybe fix her up just enough to get accross to the Caribbean (settled weather / fingers crossed? - especially if the Perkins is kaput) and then spend the next couple of years living onboard slowly fixing her up with a touch of cruising thrown in.

My main concern would be on the engine / gearbox / ancillaries (they sound highly likely to be fooked) - could maybe fit an o/b simply for docking and spend the next couple of years learning to rebuild a Perkins / keeping an eye out for a cheap repower solution.

Probably will need an understanding woman for that approach
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Old 11-01-2011, 12:58   #32
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Atsea, the sailing characteristics of twin keelers are severly compromised in order to meet the criteria of "sits on her bottom". Even with proper foil shapes on the keels, they present problems of excess leeway and poor pointing, because the one keel is small and the other badly positioned when heeled. They present equal problems of ballast. And this boat, having steel plates for keels instead of proper foils, will be even worse.

Dismssed? No, by all means, waste the OP's time debating the engineering characteristics of twin keel boats. That's not at all topical here. And, no matter how useful twin keels may be, the point remains that you can't give them away in the bulk of the wolrd's markets. Outside of a few special areas where the special criteria ARE extremely valuable, the point remains that you can't give them away because they compromise so many other areas or performance so badly.

A twin keel boat is like a life raft: Great concept, and totally unsuited for the bulk of the recreational sailing market most of the time. You might as well counsel the OP to buy a life raft, because they're valuable too.

Regarding "cheap enough" for any boat? If you don't know what it is, haven't seen or surveyed it, you can't say it is cheap. Once you have bought five or six thousand pounds of boat, it is easy to put a couple of hundred dollars in here and there...or a couple of thousand...Ooops, that engine won't work after all, another few thousand...and gee, that bulkhead had internal rot and the keel stringers need replacement...Woops, now you either put in another month of your time and money or you pay someone for five thousand pounds of haulage to a hazmat disposal dump.

That cheap boat can become a ten thousand dollar total loss very quickly. For someone who isn't familiar with boats, the return is simply not worth the risk.

You think it is such a bargain? You think there's no way to lose on that valuable white elephant? Then how come you're not bidding on it?

Oh, yes, that's different. You might get stuck with the loss.

Or you could buy it, fix it up, sail it to Nova Scotia and sell it for a huge profit. Why not do that, if you're certain it is a valuable underpriced boat?

If the OP wanted to gamble I'd have suggested Vegas. But he wants to go boating, and this is not a good way to do that. Not a good investment gamble, either.
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Old 11-01-2011, 13:49   #33
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Atsea, the sailing characteristics of twin keelers are severly compromised in order to meet the criteria of "sits on her bottom". Even with proper foil shapes on the keels, they present problems of excess leeway and poor pointing, because the one keel is small and the other badly positioned when heeled. They present equal problems of ballast. And this boat, having steel plates for keels instead of proper foils, will be even worse.

Dismssed? No, by all means, waste the OP's time debating the engineering characteristics of twin keel boats. That's not at all topical here. And, no matter how useful twin keels may be, the point remains that you can't give them away in the bulk of the wolrd's markets. Outside of a few special areas where the special criteria ARE extremely valuable, the point remains that you can't give them away because they compromise so many other areas or performance so badly.

A twin keel boat is like a life raft: Great concept, and totally unsuited for the bulk of the recreational sailing market most of the time. You might as well counsel the OP to buy a life raft, because they're valuable too.

Regarding "cheap enough" for any boat? If you don't know what it is, haven't seen or surveyed it, you can't say it is cheap. Once you have bought five or six thousand pounds of boat, it is easy to put a couple of hundred dollars in here and there...or a couple of thousand...Ooops, that engine won't work after all, another few thousand...and gee, that bulkhead had internal rot and the keel stringers need replacement...Woops, now you either put in another month of your time and money or you pay someone for five thousand pounds of haulage to a hazmat disposal dump.

That cheap boat can become a ten thousand dollar total loss very quickly. For someone who isn't familiar with boats, the return is simply not worth the risk.

You think it is such a bargain? You think there's no way to lose on that valuable white elephant? Then how come you're not bidding on it?

Oh, yes, that's different. You might get stuck with the loss.

Or you could buy it, fix it up, sail it to Nova Scotia and sell it for a huge profit. Why not do that, if you're certain it is a valuable underpriced boat?

If the OP wanted to gamble I'd have suggested Vegas. But he wants to go boating, and this is not a good way to do that. Not a good investment gamble, either.
Hooookay, lets just all calm down a touch here, I realise now, that posting a question seems to infer a total ignorance of boating and boat maintenance.
I used to own a twin keeler back in Britain and loved it. It was straight forward, belt and bracers boat that wouldn't win a race if it were the only entrant. However, it was roomy to live on and easy to handle. My plan is to get over to the Bahamas and dawdle the rest of my life away A twin keel would be fine for that A shallow draft over there is a given. I believe also, that sailing there can be a pain as the wind is always blowing from where you want to be. So many "sailers" have no choice but resort to the engine. Pushing around 8 knots this engine would be perfect or those situations.
The engine on the twin keeler is the marine version of the London black cab. Black cab engines are immortal.
The C&C is a shoal draft that is being given away by the owner who is unable to finish the project his father started. Again, the shoal draft is ideal for the Bahamas.
My initial question was, is there a watermark on the inside of the twin keeler and if so was it worth the effort
I am well acquainted with engine repair and general boat repair skills so neither would be too daunting. Not too daunting, but perhaps too long winded and costly, which is why I asked in the first place. Making that assessment on pictures alone is pretty much impossible.
Both boats, if they were within the realms of a sensible restore project would comfortably satisfy my requirements. At the same time both can be easily dismissed if they are beyond economical repair. I am aware of that and have so far committed myself to neither.
I am very grateful to you all for your candid opinions but please don't assume that someone asking a question is totally ignorant of the situation. Yes, I am eager to get back on the water and yes I do need a reality check on my choices, which is why I asked in the first place. I have received some wonderful information and some excellent help in PM as well as here. Know this though. My intention hasn't changed. I will be sharing a cold beer in the Bahamas with people on this forum as soon as I am able.
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Old 11-01-2011, 14:28   #34
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Yea that sure looks like a high water mark to me....

Good luck with whatever you decide and have fun in the Bahamas.
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Old 11-01-2011, 15:01   #35
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HBL I agree with you that a twin keel would suit your purpose in the islands just fine.Regardless of what you decide about either of the two boats being talked about I wish you luck in whatever course you take. As Florida is only a short passage from Bahamas it should be possible to buy something there that is adequate for your needs and up to the journey at a price you can manage. A boat with a centerboard (swing keel) would also suit the Keys and Bahamas.
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Old 11-01-2011, 15:45   #36
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In my opinion (which is based on no particular experience) any old boat that has been flooded is going to cost more to fix than the usual purchase price for a similar old boat that is fully functioning (i.e. has not been flooded), even if the flooded one is free. Whether or not my opinion is even worth 2c... well, that is a different question altogether.
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Old 11-01-2011, 16:34   #37
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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
Atsea, the sailing characteristics of twin keelers are severly compromised in order to meet the criteria of "sits on her bottom". Even with proper foil shapes on the keels, they present problems of excess leeway and poor pointing, because the one keel is small and the other badly positioned when heeled. They present equal problems of ballast. And this boat, having steel plates for keels instead of proper foils, will be even worse.

Dismssed? No, by all means, waste the OP's time debating the engineering characteristics of twin keel boats. That's not at all topical here. And, no matter how useful twin keels may be, the point remains that you can't give them away in the bulk of the wolrd's markets. Outside of a few special areas where the special criteria ARE extremely valuable, the point remains that you can't give them away because they compromise so many other areas or performance so badly.

A twin keel boat is like a life raft: Great concept, and totally unsuited for the bulk of the recreational sailing market most of the time. You might as well counsel the OP to buy a life raft, because they're valuable too.
Interesting view point, have you owned a twin keeled yacht by chance?

This one is mine with a 4 foot draft and no the sailing ability isn't severely compromised, actually she sails very well if you must know. Ultimate pointing ability may be slightly less than the fin keeled model but old or poorly trimmed sails would have the same effect. As to problems of ballast, hardly and "can't give them away" ha secondhand values haven't changed since pre-recession and demand for twin keel yachts remains good. Would I sail it around the world? no, but for cruising shallow waters with tides they remain an interesting option as do cats or a tri. The rest of the time they will keep up with most other similar sized cruising yachts.

So please don't write-off a range of yachts based on some outdated beliefs until you have tried a reasonably modern one.

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Old 11-01-2011, 16:34   #38
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I'm all for getting a project boat but have you done a check in yachtworld.com for Florida sailboats about 28'? It seems for well under 20k you could find something that could be better in the long run. It is amazing how quickly all the little things add up like deck hardware, lifelines, stanchions, sails, rope, awnings, engine parts etc. If you had to replace the engine you would be close to that right there.

Here is just one of many I found:
1982 Ericson 28+ Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
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Old 11-01-2011, 16:43   #39
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Interesting view point, have you owned a twin keeled yacht by chance?

This one is mine with a 4 foot draft and no the sailing ability isn't severely compromised, actually she sails very well if you must know. Ultimate pointing ability may be slightly less than the fin keeled model but old or poorly trimmed sails would have the same effect. As to problems of ballast, hardly and "can't give them away" ha secondhand values haven't changed since pre-recession and demand for twin keel yachts remains good. Would I sail it around the world? no, but for cruising shallow waters with tides they remain an interesting option as do cats or a tri. The rest of the time they will keep up with most other similar sized cruising yachts.

So please don't write-off a range of yachts based on some outdated beliefs until you have tried a reasonably modern one.

Pete
Went to look at your photo gallery Pete. That's a lovely looking boat you have there
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Old 11-01-2011, 16:56   #40
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Aw, thanks

A pretty good size for the two of us plus the dog. Whilst 31 feet is quite small for a yacht, its still a long way up that mast

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Old 11-01-2011, 16:56   #41
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I'm all for getting a project boat but have you done a check in yachtworld.com for Florida sailboats about 28'? It seems for well under 20k you could find something that could be better in the long run. It is amazing how quickly all the little things add up like deck hardware, lifelines, stanchions, sails, rope, awnings, engine parts etc. If you had to replace the engine you would be close to that right there.

Here is just one of many I found:
1982 Ericson 28+ Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
I agree on all that. Problem is, I'm looking bargain basement.
I guess this could eventually end up next to the cruising for $500 a month thread. Can Simon acquire a boat and sail off to the Bahamas on a British army war pension of around $1000 a month? lol
I think I can. But then I tell the fiancée she's a pessimist for stopping believing in Santa.
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Old 11-01-2011, 17:18   #42
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What exactly is bargan basement? I found my boat for under $5k in sail away condition. They are out there, but not at all easy to find.

You can become pretty good at judging boats by their photos and talking to the owners, but it takes practice. The best advice I can give you, having just gone through this, is to get some practice...go look at boats as close to home as possible. You will get a good feel for whats available in your price range, you will start to see through the FOS owners, and you will narrow down the list as much as possible.

Before I figured this out, I had already spent over $1500 driving thousands of miles to check out worthless boats.

Expect the worst but hope for the best... Every time you go look at a boat, expect, and plan for, the trip to be a complete waste of time. But you must go anyway just in case it works out. It's important to understand this so you can budget for it....

By the time you're ready to take off to FL to find THE boat, you will be able to shorten your boat search by months, and save yourself a few thousand dollars. You'll be able to beeline straight for the boats that are most likely to have the best potential.

it seems counter productive to spend the weekend travelling to look at boats you know you won't buy, while you're trying to save every penny you have to buy a boat! but trust me, it'll save you more in the end, and in the process, you just might stumble upon the deal of the century
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Old 11-01-2011, 17:35   #43
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Atsea, the sailing characteristics of twin keelers are severly compromised in order to meet the criteria of "sits on her bottom". Even with proper foil shapes on the keels, they present problems of excess leeway and poor pointing, because the one keel is small and the other badly positioned when heeled. They present equal problems of ballast. And this boat, having steel plates for keels instead of proper foils, will be even worse.

Dismssed? No, by all means, waste the OP's time debating the engineering characteristics of twin keel boats. That's not at all topical here. And, no matter how useful twin keels may be, the point remains that you can't give them away in the bulk of the wolrd's markets. Outside of a few special areas where the special criteria ARE extremely valuable, the point remains that you can't give them away because they compromise so many other areas or performance so badly.

A twin keel boat is like a life raft: Great concept, and totally unsuited for the bulk of the recreational sailing market most of the time. You might as well counsel the OP to buy a life raft, because they're valuable too.

Regarding "cheap enough" for any boat? If you don't know what it is, haven't seen or surveyed it, you can't say it is cheap. Once you have bought five or six thousand pounds of boat, it is easy to put a couple of hundred dollars in here and there...or a couple of thousand...Ooops, that engine won't work after all, another few thousand...and gee, that bulkhead had internal rot and the keel stringers need replacement...Woops, now you either put in another month of your time and money or you pay someone for five thousand pounds of haulage to a hazmat disposal dump.

That cheap boat can become a ten thousand dollar total loss very quickly. For someone who isn't familiar with boats, the return is simply not worth the risk.

You think it is such a bargain? You think there's no way to lose on that valuable white elephant? Then how come you're not bidding on it?

Oh, yes, that's different. You might get stuck with the loss.

Or you could buy it, fix it up, sail it to Nova Scotia and sell it for a huge profit. Why not do that, if you're certain it is a valuable underpriced boat?

If the OP wanted to gamble I'd have suggested Vegas. But he wants to go boating, and this is not a good way to do that. Not a good investment gamble, either.
My personal motto is: "Cause a little bit of trouble every day"
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Old 11-01-2011, 21:44   #44
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Gonna weigh in here, even as a neophite on such matters. If you're attracted to the boat, it fits your ideal of the dream of sailing, and fits your physical needs; go for it! I bought my 1965 Offshore 40 for less than yours is being offered for, but had you seen it, Ha! It scared everyone away from the lien sale at the marina. Still a boat that was very well built to begin with is a great place to start. A scant 2 months later with a lot of love, fun and elbow grease, but not a lot of money by doing it all myself, I have a classic boat that has already been out (and back!) on her own and is receiving complements from up and down the docks. Sure she's far from done but the more I get done, the better she looks the more it excites, like the proverbial snowball rolling downhill, my momentum grows. Am closing in on some biggies that I'll be posting enquiries on soon but finding that mixing the work between systems/structural and cosmetic is necessary for morale. And always start the day's work with something relatively quick and gratifying, then you can step back, smile at your accomplishment and then dive into the bigger job. Also need to state that I committed to live aboard so I'm here to enjoy it with few distractions (that said I never realized how much fun the sailboat tribe was; hardly a day passes here in SoCal that an invitation to go sailing, kayaking, fishing, partying isn't offered that I can't resist; sailing tomorrow to Ensenada, Mex. with a cool couple from Norway who put in recently from Japan via Alaska, will return on the shuttle van while they continue on. Its a wonder I've gotten done what I have so far. Had I known about this life I'd have been living it years ago!). But I digress, reckon the point I'm on about is to just do it, can't wait till things are ideal in your life; make a commitment and go for it or you may just miss it! How sad would that be. My timbers shivered as I wrote that; can't imagine being anywhere else but here on my beautiful old boat falling asleep to the gentle rocking and waking to the sound of gulls. Cheers Mate
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Old 12-01-2011, 00:58   #45
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Well that cheered up my cold wintry evening thanks. I think the point of having a self disciplined work routine for a venture such as this is paramount. I'm stuck in the mountains of West Virginia tonight but i can smell the sea air.
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