Is It Worth It?

[Normanby]

Glad to see Roger Taylor mentioned on this thread.
Roger shows that you can cross oceans and weather severe gales in an unsinkable self-righting boat.
Mingming I was 21', Mingming II is 24'.
Headroom problem solved by building a turret (it doesn't really warrant the more salty "pilothouse" name).
Inspiring stuff.


Matt
Compass 28

[Terra Nova]

Originally Posted by Broken-Sailor

...over all height of the boat can clear under 15'6"...

At any moment I am expecting you to post "Just kidding!"

[Broken-Sailor]

Originally Posted by Terra Nova

At any moment I am expecting you to post "Just kidding!"

Nope was not kidding. With the mast down if I can't clear the 15'6" mark I have to take to longer route and then there is still that one bridge to deal with.

Per Your Great Loop boat requirements and restrictions

Go or No Go" Your Great Loop boat restrictions:


1.) Your boat must be able to clear a 19' 1" fixed bridge. This means, after taking off or taking down, any removable objects on your boat such as; Bimini, Masts, Antennas, etc. Your boat's super-structure must be able to pass under a fixed bridge between Chicago and the Illinois River with a height above the water of 19' 1". There is no alternative waterway route around this bridge.

2.) Your boat must have a draft of less than 6 feet. In other words, all that part of your boat that extends below the water, can not be deeper than 6 feet. In fact I cannot stress enough, the shallower your draft, the better. If your plans include cruising the (optional) Canadian Heritage Canals, your full load draft must be less than 5 feet.

3.) Fuel - your boat must have a minimum fuel range of at least 250 miles.
This is the farthest distance between fuel stops if you take the Tennessee-Tombigbee route. So, unless you plan on carrying additional fuel in Jerry cans, your boat's fuel tank(s) capacity must allow you a cruising range of at least 250 statute miles.
NOTE: (optional route) If you plan to cruise the Lower Mississippi River route from Cairo to New Orleans, your "diesel powered" boat will need a cruising range of 376 miles. Your "gasoline powered" vessel must have a cruising range of at least 449 miles.

Your comfort both inside and outside is critical

1.) Length - between 28 to 36 feet is as good as it gets for couples. This is big enough for comfort, but not too big to be unsafe or excessively expensive. Singles or "backpacker" types can do it in smaller boats, and those that have the bigger budgets can do long term cruising expenses..

2.) Height (above the water line) - you vessel's super-structure (with mast, bimini, antennas down) must be able to clear a 19' 1" fixed RR bridge in order to avoid turning the Great Loop into a Great U-turn. If you can clear 17 feet you can cruise right through downtown Chicago. If you can clear 15' 6" you will have totally unrestricted cruising on the Great Loop, both in the USA and Canada's Champlain Route and Heritage Canals.

3.) Depth (below the water line) - The Cruising Guides will tell you - that you can do the Loop with a 6' draft. Maybe you can, but I (personally) wouldn't even try it. Less draft is better - much better. I've run aground twice on the AICW with a 3' 6" draft (this is why I always cruise on a rising tide). Your draft must be less than 5 feet on the Champlain Route and to cruise the Canada's Heritage Canals. Other than that, the less draft you have, the more worry free and relaxed you will be..

4.) Beam - For pleasure boats in the USA, this is never a problem. You must have a beam of 23 feet and under however, to cruise the Canadian Heritage Canals.

I'll be using the Tennessee-Tombigbee route just so you know. This is why I was asking about a mast that can be raised and lowered without a crane fairly easily, something like an old powered antenna on a car would do when needed. And yes I know a mast is not an antenna that can be raised and lowered with a flip of the switch.

[Mark1977]

Broken Sailor, what kind of budget are you working with?
The 35000$ boats are nice, but how achievable are they for you right now?
I would suggest you buy something to start with. The reality of you buying a boat and leaving right away are slim. Start small and enjoy the area you are in first. Just my two cents.....
Sailboat, Cape Dory 25
22' Catalina Sailboat with Galvanized Trailer
1986 Luger Fairwinds Sailboat 27 Foot
Com-Pac 19' Sailboat
1971 Balboa 20
25' Catalina Capri Sailboat

Here are a few under 5000......

[Broken-Sailor]

Originally Posted by Mark1977

Broken Sailor, what kind of budget are you working with?
The 35000$ boats are nice, but how achievable are they for you right now?
I would suggest you buy something to start with. The reality of you buying a boat and leaving right away are slim. Start small and enjoy the area you are in first. Just my two cents.....
Sailboat, Cape Dory 25
22' Catalina Sailboat with Galvanized Trailer
1986 Luger Fairwinds Sailboat 27 Foot
Com-Pac 19' Sailboat
1971 Balboa 20
25' Catalina Capri Sailboat

Here are a few under 5000......

I will not be buying or leaving right away. I have to save up for a while plus I have those nasty health issues to deal with right now. I am on a clear liquid diet all day today and nothing at all after midnight today, then have to be at the hospital at 10am tomorrow for a test to see if they are going to have to operate on me for this new problem of Diverticulitis. I already know that I am going to have to have knee replacement surgery on both knees and it looks like they are moving that up a year since my right knee has gotten worse. That knee was the best of the two and now it is in the worst shape of the two.

Right now I am just trying to find the right type of boat. Once I know the type of boat that will do what I want it to do then I will start looking for the best boat for the asking price. Push comes to shove I could sale my lots to raise the money for a boat but I would rather hang on to them for now especially if I might can trade a few of them for a privately owned slip across the road at the marina. Right now the lots we have sold off have sold for $10,500.00 each and we have 225 lots left on that piece of property. That is not counting the lots that belong to myself, my brother, and my sister. We each have three lots closest to the lake. The lots we have, have the best view of the lake except for Mom and Dads five acre section that sits on top of the hill that is also not included in those 225 lots.

P.S. I'll be buying a small sailing dingy first to use locally and then use it on the larger boat after I get it.

[Scot McPherson]

Originally Posted by Broken-Sailor

Nope was not kidding. With the mast down if I can't clear the 15'6" mark I have to take to longer route and then there is still that one bridge to deal with.

Per Your Great Loop boat requirements and restrictions

I'll be using the Tennessee-Tombigbee route just so you know. This is why I was asking about a mast that can be raised and lowered without a crane fairly easily, something like an old powered antenna on a car would do when needed. And yes I know a mast is not an antenna that can be raised and lowered with a flip of the switch.

You can remast you boat with a tabernacle so you can lower the mast before going under, and raise it again as you clear the bridge.


This a common solution for river sailors on the Mississippi, Missouri, Columbus, Ohio and Tennessee rivers.

[J Clark H356]

Sailors doing the loop take their masts down and put on a temporary cradle while transiting those sections of the loop that require low clearances. I am assuming your are near Pickwick, so this fall, go over to Grand Harbor or Aqua Yacht and see what boats look like with the mast down and how they did it. The TennTom has max clearance 0f 52 feet, but could be lower than that depending on water levels. I have been down the TennTom in my Hunter 356 and back. I took the mast down at Lighthouse Landing at Tennessee River mile 24 and put it back up at Turner Marine in Mobile on Dog River. Reversed this process returning last spring. It sounds much more complicated than it actually is and will add a couple of days going down and coming back up. Don't let mast height dictate your choice of a cruising boat. The comfort factor is WAY more important. I have a full cockpit enclosure, radar, AIS, a generator, KVH tracking antenna for Dish network, computers, iPads, etc. and we have been comfortable making that portion of the loop. On those days when ice on the dodger and it is 27 degrees, a generator with HVAC going will keep you conmfortable. You need a good LED light like GoLight makes, preferably with remote control, because you are going to have delays and not reach your desired anchorage during daylight hours. It's also helpful when looking for buoys at night and confirming with a good Chartplotter and radar. AIS helps you plan your route in the curvy sections of rivers. It will let you decide where you pass a tow on a foggy, very dark night when you have been delayed by tows that have priority over the locks.

It's no more difficult to sail a mid sized or large boat than a small one if you have it correctly equipped. In fact, il equipped small boats are harder because you don't usually have the electrical capacity for autoplots, radar and other labor saving and safety devices.

Once you fix your medical problems, you should be fine. We have plenty of friends that have had both knees and hips replaced that are not handicapped by it. My wife and I are 67 and have no problems cruising the rivers, Gulf and Southwest Florida, but we have a boat equipped to meet our needs and make things easy. I have had bypass and have a defibrillator. The boat and how it is EQUIPPED is VERY important. If you can't get a boat that is properly equipped, your trip will be short lived and you will probably give it up. When you are offshore, spay hitting you and it is 40 to 50 degrees and you are hand steering and freezing due to the wind chill factor, you will know what I am talking about here. Talk to people who have done this. There are plenty coming through your area in the fall.


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[Broken-Sailor]

Originally Posted by J Clark H356

Sailors doing the loop take their masts down and put on a temporary cradle while transiting those sections of the loop that require low clearances. I am assuming your are near Pickwick, so this fall, go over to Grand Harbor or Aqua Yacht and see what boats look like with the mast down and how they did it. The TennTom has max clearance 0f 52 feet, but could be lower than that depending on water levels. I have been down the TennTom in my Hunter 356 and back. I took the mast down at Lighthouse Landing at Tennessee River mile 24 and put it back up at Turner Marine in Mobile on Dog River. Reversed this process returning last spring. It sounds much more complicated than it actually is and will add a couple of days going down and coming back up. Don't let mast height dictate your choice of a cruising boat. The comfort factor is WAY more important. I have a full cockpit enclosure, radar, AIS, a generator, KVH tracking antenna for Dish network, computers, iPads, etc. and we have been comfortable making that portion of the loop. On those days when ice on the dodger and it is 27 degrees, a generator with HVAC going will keep you conmfortable. You need a good LED light like GoLight makes, preferably with remote control, because you are going to have delays and not reach your desired anchorage during daylight hours. It's also helpful when looking for buoys at night and confirming with a good Chartplotter and radar. AIS helps you plan your route in the curvy sections of rivers. It will let you decide where you pass a tow on a foggy, very dark night when you have been delayed by tows that have priority over the locks.

It's no more difficult to sail a mid sized or large boat than a small one if you have it correctly equipped. In fact, il equipped small boats are harder because you don't usually have the electrical capacity for autoplots, radar and other labor saving and safety devices.

Once you fix your medical problems, you should be fine. We have plenty of friends that have had both knees and hips replaced that are not handicapped by it. My wife and I are 67 and have no problems cruising the rivers, Gulf and Southwest Florida, but we have a boat equipped to meet our needs and make things easy. I have had bypass and have a defibrillator. The boat and how it is EQUIPPED is VERY important. If you can't get a boat that is properly equipped, your trip will be short lived and you will probably give it up. When you are offshore, spay hitting you and it is 40 to 50 degrees and you are hand steering and freezing due to the wind chill factor, you will know what I am talking about here. Talk to people who have done this. There are plenty coming through your area in the fall.


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I am about an hour and a half east of Kentucky Lake and about that west of Percy Priest Lake. Pickwick is further away but still doable and is on the loop too. I figure there will be allot more sailboats in the lakes east of Nashville than there are in the marinas west of here in Kentucky Lake. After I get these medical issues out of the way I'll have the time to go visiting some of my family that lives on or near the coast. I have family in Texas, Florida, Georgia, both North and South Carolina, Massachusetts, and New York along that coast. On the western part I have family in California and in Eagle River Alaska.

[J Clark H356]

Typical marina stops on the Tennessee are at Lighthouse Landing, Kentucky Dam Marina and Green Turtle Bay at Mike 24. Pebble Isle at New Johnsonville is a good stop as is Cuba Landing near I40 and in Clifton, TN. In October there is a rendezvous at Joe Wheeler on the Tennessee in Alabama for loopers. You will see everything there and I would encourage you to get out there and find out all you can about it. Once you know about the conditions you are likely to encounter, you will find a boat that meets your needs.


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[Broken-Sailor]

Originally Posted by J Clark H356

Typical marina stops on the Tennessee are at Lighthouse Landing, Kentucky Dam Marina and Green Turtle Bay at Mike 24. Pebble Isle at New Johnsonville is a good stop as is Cuba Landing near I40 and in Clifton, TN. In October there is a rendezvous at Joe Wheeler on the Tennessee in Alabama for loopers. You will see everything there and I would encourage you to get out there and find out all you can about it. Once you know about the conditions you are likely to encounter, you will find a boat that meets your needs.


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Hopefully I'll be able to go by then. It all depends on when they do the surgery and the recovery time involved. Also if they do both knees at once or one at a time. Just have to wait and see. Have no idea what the recovery time is if they have to remove part of my intestines, I'm hoping the medications took care of it. I'll find out in the morning I guess.

[Scot McPherson]

Good luck mate

[Broken-Sailor]

Originally Posted by Scot McPherson

Good luck mate

Thanks Scot, getting ready to head out to the hospital as soon as I get dressed. Anyone know what a good used sailing dingy goes for now days? The ones I saw with a sail kit are all inflatable types.

[accomplice]

OP, you are surely right to think about safety when purchasing a new boat, but to focus on "unsinkable" and "self-righting" I believe misses many important points.

First, with respect to sinking, how many lives are lost due to sinking vs. to falling overboard? I suggest you focus instead on keeping yourself and your crew on the boat.

Second, with respect to rogue waves, as others have pointed out, they are exceedingly rare. I'm not the first to say it, but waves don't usually sink boats, through-hulls do.

Third, if you are worried about being out in rough weather, focus on crew experience and weather planning. In most of the boats I've been to sea on, the boat could handle a lot more than the crew ever could. (see a recent thread on an "adventurer" who called for rescue aboard his small sailboat in the north atlantic -- his boat finished the trip without him!)

Fourth, virtually all sailboats (with keel) are self-righting in that if you bring them to 90 degrees heel, they will right themselves. Similarly, virtually any boat, if brought to 180 degrees and left undisturbed, will stay inverted. The saving grace is that hopefully any conditions which would invert a boat would soon then move it an angle where it would right itself. While much attention has been paid to angle of vanishing stability, also important to consider is dynamic roll resistance. These are not trivial issues, and the phrase "self-righting" over-simplifies the dynamic processes.

I suggest you refine your "unsinkable" criterion to mean safe and appropriate for the conditions and purposes for which you will be using it. The first challenge then is to carefully define those conditions and purposes. You surely will have a clearer idea of what you need and want after you have more experience sailing.

Best of luck.

[Pete7]

Yee gods that Duo has a big fuel tank, something like 227 litres and that is if the tank is US gallons rather than imperial. Our VP 2003 uses about 1.5 liters per hour at 2000 revs for about 5-5.5 knots depending on weight and the bottom condition. So you have a range of 750 miles and a draft of 3'4", probably quite useful for doing the loop and excellent for the Bahamas. Would I sail our very similar Moody 31 to Oz, hmm perhaps not but Roger Taylors latest yacht is a 24ft triple keeled yacht.

By comparison we have a 24 US gallon fuel tank I consider that too much and am about to reduce it by a 1/3rd. It would be interesting to see were they have put all those extra tanks and if it affects the balance of the boat. The water alone is 1/2 a tonne and that is without the tanks on a boat that probably weights 8000 lbs.

There are other Duo's with big tanks btw:

Westerly Konsort 29 Duo - Westerly Konsort 29 Duo Sailboat for sale in Netherlands :: Boatshop24

The Moody equivalent to the Westerly was the Eclipse 33, slightly more expensive but owners seem to love them. Both manufacturers were in directly competition with each other for many years btw.

[Scot McPherson]

227 liters is about 75 gallons by rough reckoning. A liter is just a bit more than a quart.

The fuel probably weighs about 500lbs...again, just rough reckoning.