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Old 03-06-2016, 07:05   #16
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Re: Interesting Day on a Swan 60

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Originally Posted by Pyxis156 View Post
Dockhead, in the second picture you posted of the target speed table, do you know if the BS column is indicating the sails to use at that wind angle and speed? Thanks for sharing, interesting insights.

Edit: Nevermind, just hit me this is in Europe and the comma is a period here in the US, duh...
Indeed -- "BS" is boat speed.

I was quite interested in this. The crew said that the table came from the designer, and that it is quite accurate with the sails they are using (carbon laminate performance cruising sails just like mine, plus an assy).

I was also interested in the fact that they did not have apparent wind angle or speed displayed ANYWHERE. They sail purely on true wind. For apparent wind, they look at the Windex. Seriously. Different world from the way we sail.

Instrument/computers they used was a B&G H3000 system, Expedition, and 8" Furuno plotters at both helm positions, and Furuno black box at the nav station.

They have TWO navigators in their crew plus one tactician. One navigator does nothing but safety and collision avoidance, checking the work of the main navigator, checking routes for obstacles, dealing with traffic, etc. Really excellent practice. I bet Team Vestas wish they had been doing it that way. A truly impressive crew of top guys, and really beautiful to see how they worked together. Sure hope they win.
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Old 03-06-2016, 07:11   #17
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Re: Interesting Day on a Swan 60

I can see not needing apparent wind if you have polars but indeed a very alien concept to my way of sailing!

I edited my post and you may have missed the last edit... any comments or insights on how the headsail barber hauler shown in your third pic was implemented and functioned on that Swan?
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Old 03-06-2016, 08:20   #18
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Re: Interesting Day on a Swan 60

Interesting experience... and one which is completely unrelated to my sailing. Racing is very different from the sort of cruising we do. How much of what these crew and boats do/are can trickle down to cruisers? I assume that would be to increase speed... and that raises the max hull speed constraint issue... how little wind can a boat turn into max hull speed...

No?
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Old 03-06-2016, 12:12   #19
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Re: Interesting Day on a Swan 60

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Originally Posted by Sandero View Post
Interesting experience... and one which is completely unrelated to my sailing. Racing is very different from the sort of cruising we do. How much of what these crew and boats do/are can trickle down to cruisers? I assume that would be to increase speed... and that raises the max hull speed constraint issue... how little wind can a boat turn into max hull speed...

No?
In my opinion, racing is very relevant to cruising under sail, very relevant to anyone who wants to understand how to get sailing performance out of his boat. Particularly upwind, as that is where the real art of sailing is.

And even if you're not sailing hard all the time (even if some cruisers do that). It just shows the way to best practice.
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Old 03-06-2016, 14:06   #20
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Re: Interesting Day on a Swan 60

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I get the impression that you've never experienced big ocean conditions. A boat which takes sheets of green water over the bow in bad weather is a very dangerous boat. Especially a boat which has no cockpit and nothing to hide behind.

Of course it is possible to survive, and even enjoy strong sea conditions on such a boat, but it's an extreme sport requiring very intense effort to stay tied down tight to the boat to avoid being washed off the deck. It's a bit like technical mountain climbing -- a dangerous sport, but a real thrill for people who seek that particular experience.


In the case of this boat, the lack of provision by the designer for any kind of protection of the crew in bad weather is a style-driven design defect (this is not a pure racing boat so style was a big part of the design brief), shared by a number of other stylish performance cruisers. Not just my opinion, but the opinion of the crew also, and these guys are top ocean racers.
I guess F 10 qualifies as bad weather, On the Atlantic only got F9 but F10 on the med is worse than F10 on the Atlantic. I had as neighbours, till some days ago, a German couple that had just finished a many year long circumnavigation and they were the 2th circumnavigators that had told me that (the worst conditions they got were on the Med). The other, that had said the same thing to me, had circumnavigated twice (and yes both had circumnavigated by the Horn and one of them had passed almost a full year on Antarctica and Patagonia).

Yes it is a thrill to sail a powerful, very seaworthy sailboat on heavy conditions, specially if they are sailed by a crew, as those Swans are designed to be sailed.

Regarding seaworthiness and stability of old Swans versus new ones it seems you don't know that new ones have a much better safety stability and a better AVS.

That has to do with what was needed to make a boat competitive in IMS and IRC sailing. Unfortunately for many years stability was very penalised in rating so to have competitive boats they had to cut on stability, making less stable boats with a lower AVS (not only the Swans but all cruiser racers from that era).

Now that has finished and boats with a big stability (including reserve stability and high AVS) are competitive again in a fair way, so many offshore cruiser racers have those characteristics, including the new Swans
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Old 03-06-2016, 17:17   #21
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Re: Interesting Day on a Swan 60

I think quite a lot trickles down. I can't see to much cruising design/technology on racers. So, apparently, the transfer of materials and technology is one way only - from racing to cruising.

Spectra, carbon, balanced spade rudders, bulb keels, goretex foullies ...

b.
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Old 04-06-2016, 00:19   #22
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Re: Interesting Day on a Swan 60

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. . .

Regarding seaworthiness and stability of old Swans versus new ones it seems you don't know that new ones have a much better safety stability and a better AVS.

. . .
I never said anything about stability, or indeed anything about seaworthiness other than the narrow questions of wetness and staying on the boat. I have no doubt that these boats are very strong and very seaworthy -- like all Swans.
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Old 04-06-2016, 00:30   #23
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Re: Interesting Day on a Swan 60

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
I think quite a lot trickles down. I can't see to much cruising design/technology on racers. So, apparently, the transfer of materials and technology is one way only - from racing to cruising.

Spectra, carbon, balanced spade rudders, bulb keels, goretex foullies ...

b.
I agree completely. Racing improves the breed, and it is surprising how many racing-specific technologies find their place on cruising boats. Soon there will not be a single piece of cordage on my boat which is not Dyneema; my sails are already carbon laminate; bulb keel check . . .
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Old 04-06-2016, 03:43   #24
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Re: Interesting Day on a Swan 60

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Call me old fashioned but imho nothing beats the classic S&S and German Frers Swan designs. But yes I'm still jealous Dockhead
Inded Last year i remember see Kings Legend a swan 65 S&S anchored in the bay, second in the old Whitbread and now doing charter, gorgeous boat from every side and those S&S lines are like !!!
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Old 04-06-2016, 06:54   #25
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Re: Interesting Day on a Swan 60

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Inded Last year i remember see Kings Legend a swan 65 S&S anchored in the bay, second in the old Whitbread and now doing charter, gorgeous boat from every side and those S&S lines are like !!!
I had a S&S Swan 65 original Nautor's poster on my wall when teenager
Next to the Swan 57
Oh if I ever win the lottery...
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Old 04-06-2016, 08:58   #26
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Re: Interesting Day on a Swan 60

Haaa if I win to.... in the meantime I keep dreaming...
https://youtu.be/DnEyWyOF2y0
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Old 04-06-2016, 11:32   #27
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Re: Interesting Day on a Swan 60

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Originally Posted by Sandero View Post
Interesting experience... and one which is completely unrelated to my sailing. Racing is very different from the sort of cruising we do. How much of what these crew and boats do/are can trickle down to cruisers? I assume that would be to increase speed... and that raises the max hull speed constraint issue... how little wind can a boat turn into max hull speed...

No?
Obviously boat speed is primarily driven by racers, but it's far wider a net than that.

Racers spend huge amount of time, money, and effort, making boats that are easy to sail. Because where a cruiser may be fine with close enough trim racers are always fiddling trying to get just a little better trim. The result is deck gear that directly applies to cruisers.

Once a need has been identified of race boats it doesn't take long for cruisers to start adapting it, and writhing just a few years it becomes pretty standard equipment. Just off the top of my head...

Asymmetric spinnakers
Furlers for asymmetric spinnakers
Ball bearing blocks
Ball bearing trim cars
Rope clutches
Polyester double braid line (sta-set was the first line that could reasonably replace wire halyards)
Dyneema in all its forms
Self tailing winches
Big roach mains

But there is some transfer back to racing, though not as much. Furling headsails are probably the best example. What used to be almost exclusively a cruising piece of gear has become pretty common in race boats as well. Driven by the small jib large main phenomina. Not so much for ocean racers, but around the buoy racers like the Melges 32 and a lot of dingys.
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Old 04-06-2016, 11:52   #28
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Re: Interesting Day on a Swan 60

Swan is running out of numbers, not the Swan 60 I was thinking of.

Seems the boat you were on was ideal for it's purpose, a sound but exciting one design fleet.

Solid boats. I've been lucky and have sailed a 39,44,441,46,47,48,51,57,60 and 65.
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Old 04-06-2016, 12:01   #29
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Re: Interesting Day on a Swan 60

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I guess F 10 qualifies as bad weather, On the Atlantic only got F9 but F10 on the med is worse than F10 on the Atlantic. I had as neighbours, till some days ago, a German couple that had just finished a many year long circumnavigation and they were the 2th circumnavigators that had told me that (the worst conditions they got were on the Med). The other, that had said the same thing to me, had circumnavigated twice (and yes both had circumnavigated by the Horn and one of them had passed almost a full year on Antarctica and Patagonia).

Yes it is a thrill to sail a powerful, very seaworthy sailboat on heavy conditions, specially if they are sailed by a crew, as those Swans are designed to be sailed.

Regarding seaworthiness and stability of old Swans versus new ones it seems you don't know that new ones have a much better safety stability and a better AVS.

That has to do with what was needed to make a boat competitive in IMS and IRC sailing. Unfortunately for many years stability was very penalised in rating so to have competitive boats they had to cut on stability, making less stable boats with a lower AVS (not only the Swans but all cruiser racers from that era).

Now that has finished and boats with a big stability (including reserve stability and high AVS) are competitive again in a fair way, so many offshore cruiser racers have those characteristics, including the new Swans
Do any of the new boats measure up to the very old Contessa 32??
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Old 04-06-2016, 13:59   #30
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Re: Interesting Day on a Swan 60

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Do any of the new boats measure up to the very old Contessa 32??
That is a kind of odd question. The Contessa 32 is much smaller than any Swan so no directcomparison is possible. if you refer to stability and looking only to the GZ type of curve (arm's curve) the Swan has comparatively much more stability (weight and size put aside) and the Contessa 32 a higher AVS.

I would say that the type of stability curve of a modern Swan offers more advantages than the type of curve of a Contessa 32 (including sail stability/power, reserve stability, AVS and the total amount of positive stability regarding negative stability).

That is why today's IRC performance boats (when money is no problem) are designed with not very different stability parameters than the ones on the modern Swan and not like on a Contessa 32, a performance boat from another time.

Regarding the two Swans I posted, the 45 is a 2001 German Frers design has an AVS of 134º, the Swan 60R is also a German Frers design and the AVS is 128º.

The Contessa as as AVS of 155º but that at the cost (comparatively, disregarding sizes and looking only at the type of stability curve) of less power on the sailing stability, less RM at 90º and an overall smaller total amount of positive stability.

Not any sense in what regards to compare the seaworthiness of a smaller boat with a bigger one, but just to have a measure of it, the STIX of the Contessa 32 is 33, the one of the Swan 60R is 68 and the one of the Swan 45 is 57.

STIX is not an absolute measure to seaworthiness but it is the best tool available, assuming the boats are solid and well built and that is the case with the Contessa and the Swan.
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