Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 06-03-2014, 16:17   #31
Registered User
 
thomm225's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Hampton Roads
Boat: 1974 Bristol 27
Posts: 3,479
Re: In Mast Furling

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky View Post

You just need to have a properly made sail for it, but this is a truth with any system.

Best regards

Thomas
Actually, I'm thinking as any racer would that you need an improperly made sail for it.
__________________

__________________
thomm225 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2014, 16:18   #32
Registered User

Join Date: May 2013
Location: Connecticut
Boat: 38' Pearson Invicta
Posts: 127
Re: In Mast Furling

Laziness. Only good excuse I see with in mast furling.

I am guilty of some laziness myself so I will go with lazy jacks and stack pack type system. Almost as easy to furl and store mainsail as in mast.

I do not want to take a chance with a jam if there is another easy way and I do not want weight up high in the mast.

However I have a manual windless and hand held lead line; )
__________________

__________________
Noreastern is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2014, 16:25   #33
Senior Cruiser
 
Cheechako's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 19,371
Re: In Mast Furling

I had it on my Passport 47 and the performance seemed terrible on that boat, except with a deep reef and staysail in 30-35. The boat had a pretty modern cruising shape and a very long waterline... just didnt seem to move well except in blow. I can only attribute it to the wimpy (new) mainsail lacking drive without a roach. I spent a lot of money on extra winches, high end stopers etc to make it easy to reef... it still jammed alot. it's the pits when the wind is piping up and you get jammed. JMHO
__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard











Cheechako is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2014, 16:56   #34
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Underway in the Med -
Boat: Jeanneau 40 DS SoulMates
Posts: 1,904
Images: 1
Re: In Mast Furling

10 years of boat ownership 6 years of full time cruising and thousands of miles and never a jam - in big winds can reef to any size - would have nothing else - and i am not lazy
__________________
just our thoughts and opinions
chuck and svsoulmates
In Marmaris Turkey for the winter
chuckr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2014, 17:11   #35
Registered User
 
Nicholson58's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Live aboard
Boat: Camper & Nicholson58 Ketch - ROXY Traverse City, Michigan No.668283
Posts: 3,466
Images: 83
Re: In Mast Furling

Quote:
Originally Posted by azsailor12 View Post
To be honest, I've only been on one boat that had in mast furling. As the sail was moving in and out, it made "popping" noises, as if something was getting hung up. I realize that some people prefer lots of gadgets to make things easier, but I prefer simple- less things to break.
Popping - I suspect the furler was slack so it rattled abut the furling cavity.

Our main is electric in-mast. Absolutely love it. I raced for over 20 years and I expected the worst when we bought this boat. We both like operating totally from the cockpit. No on-deck terror dances. At the end of a sail its gone in less than a boat length. Nothing to hoist up our 80 ft mast. The main weighs in around 120 pounds so eliminating the hoist is a time and back saver. The mizzen is in-mast too and the Genoa and cutter staysail also roller furl. Using a Milwaukee 1/2" drive 28 volt right angle drill with winch drive makes handling our large sails manageable. We loose the modern large roach but the center of effort is lower and I made the #1 a bit bigger (135%). We point way better than I expected and our cruise speed is about 9 - 10 knots in a fair breeze. We are made for trade wind reaching and easily break 11 knots often. As long as your main is relatively flat and the draft has not 'stretched' forward you should be able to point well enough.
__________________
Nicholson58 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2014, 18:02   #36
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Duluth, MN
Boat: Morgan 383
Posts: 129
Re: In Mast Furling

If I was going to design something that would be easy to jam and difficult to fix, it would look a lot like in-mast furling.

We have lazy jacks & a stack-pack sail cover and a Tides Strong Track system plus 4 full battens. I think that we can raise and drop/zip up the sail cover in about the same time as it takes to get the in-mast system put away. True, we have to go on deck, but we also have very good sail shape, a bomb proof reefing system, and I have to believe less weight aloft. I personally would not want in-mast furling. I've sailed enough with them to know.
Our friends have in-mast furling and bought some high tech UK sails that were "glued" together. In the middle of no where during a distance race they were in a storm. The "glue" turned out to be somewhat water soluble. When the sails dried off the main was stuck (reglued in position) neither in nor out. Up the mast a couple of times. UK did replace the sails....
__________________
Dale Hedtke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2014, 18:14   #37
Registered User
 
SimonV's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Brisbane, Australia.
Posts: 1,316
Re: In Mast Furling

I have slab reefing on my boat, but given a choice I would love to have in mast furling. I have delivered boats with it and love the ease of use. The only issues I have come across is when the boat had been less than idealy looked after and we had an old out of shape main.

Sent from my GT-N7105T using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
Simon

https://svgoodonya.blogspot.com.au/
SimonV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2014, 18:53   #38
Registered User
 
bobsadler's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Shenzhen, China
Boat: Nauticat 42 (Jersey, U.K.)
Posts: 385
Send a message via Skype™ to bobsadler
Re: In Mast Furling

Well I might be the one the OP was looking for.

When I bought the boat in NC (U.S.) she had in-mast furling (with manual winches) and was like that when we took her across the Atlantic.

All was well until one evening as the wind came up and we started furling the main. We had got about a 1/3 of the way in only to have the whole thing completely unfurl when a gust hit us. Then we started furling again. It was tiring work.

For the crossing I had myself and two other males (one 50s, one 40s) the younger of whom was a hugely experienced sailor. We were all fit.

When we reached Jersey (UK) I decided that the in-mast system would be fine for coastal cruising in N Europe and probably N America, where youve got an RNLI lifeboat or similar or Coastguard cutter every few miles, but for ocean crossings or remote areas it posed too many risks for a middle aged pair (male 63, female 56).

The idea of having to go up the mast to cut away a jammed sail is bad enough - and the way the sail creased when being furled was always a concern - but not being able to reef in a bad blow is worse.

I looked at various ways of converting the rig to single line reefing but never found a satisfactory solution so in the end I changed it out entirely. I now have a partially battened main. The 1st reef is "slab reefed" put in at the mast and the 2nd and 3rd are "single line" and put in from the cockpit.

I have to say that it's a lot less work than winding the main into the mast though getting the main up requires a bit more effort (though not much as the halyard is doubled).

As far as performance goes I haven't seen much difference but then I'm not racing or anything close.

Was it worth changing - I think so.
__________________
Bob
SV Karen M
http://www.freewebs.com/svkarenm/
bobsadler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2014, 19:15   #39
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 464
Re: In Mast Furling

Hi Dockhead
I'm only reporting what we experienced with this boat on its first
cruise. Maybe there has to be some break in of the system to get it
To operate smoother or perhaps it needed some adjustment but the
Tension on furling line to furl when off the wind was enormous.
The owner decided to head up, apply tension to the out haul
And get a nice smooth and even wrap. I'm no expert on this but if
I had to guess I'd say it had something to do with the sail exiting the mast
And then having to make a sharp bend. Sail shape was never pretty.
Sure was easy to get used to, especially with the electric winches.
I should note that after this cruise one of the in mast halyards had to be replaced because one proud rivet destroyed it.
__________________
Time2Go is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2014, 19:26   #40
Registered User
 
Nicholson58's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Live aboard
Boat: Camper & Nicholson58 Ketch - ROXY Traverse City, Michigan No.668283
Posts: 3,466
Images: 83
Re: In Mast Furling

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Sky View Post
Ease the mainsheet, keep slight tension on the outhaul and roll it up.

My Uncle who taught me about sailing a long time ago wouldn't never buy into one of those new fangled roller furling head sails either. And you better have two masts too.
The roller main furler will roll easily if the lead from the clew is good. Too high or too low and the material will bunch or bag. Mark your topping lift for the right spot. Also, make sure the foil is tight enough that it doesn't ride excessively tightly against the mast slot opening. Also be extremely careful that nothing else such as a flag halyard can get sucked in while it is furling. This happened to us once and it is instant disaster. One other time the storm tri-sail halyard was likewise pulled in. We have noticed that winding in the main may work better with port or starboard rotation depending on what side the boom is on. This can effect the friction during winding.

Glad to have your uncle come help hoist our 135% #1 - 280 pounds of 5-layer fusion membrane on an 80 foot mast. Flaked on a grassy field and tightly rolled the bag is 4 feet diameter by 4-1/2 feet long. It is not possible to flake it on deck and stuffed down below would fill the entire salon. This whole discussion depends heartily on the size of the vessel and sails as well as the crew that will operate it and how you will use it. Furling sails were made to make life easy on big boats and for short-handed and older sailors. They are not race equipment on most boats. We never drag wet sails below and we don't put ourselves at risk on a pitching deck. Our boom is 5 feet above the coach roof and the aft end is 7 feet over the cockpit. Lets see your uncle flake that main.

We do have light air inventory we manhandle to hoist. The mizzen staysail is good to about 10 apparent. Its easy to hoist & set since the conditions for its use are pretty benign with wind 90 to 160 degrees. The AS kite is mostly a 200% jib of about 110 #. We put a halyard on it inside the guest cabin and haul it through the port or stbd hatch just ahead of the mast using the Milwaukee power winch driver. It has an ATN sock. This year we are adding a 131.5 sq meter code zero - also with a sock.

Roller furling may not give you the greatest speed or efficiency but we get there in one piece, at pretty good speed and not beat up.
__________________
Nicholson58 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2014, 20:06   #41
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,441
Re: In Mast Furling

I probably would not be here but for in-mast furling.

It was a Hood Stoway, so it was relatively undeveloped, immature technology, and to cap it, not well suited to the boat. The drive was woefully underspecified (a line-driver winch, which I would have thought marginal on a 40 footer, was fitted to a 52 footer)

Worst of all, there was NO backup: no bevel gearbox at the bottom end, which you could plug a winch handle directly into. Just an endless loop of undersized braid, running around an undersized line-driver winch, on a cobbled-up mounting so the whole winch slid and wobbled along a track, so the line could be tensioned.

What's to like?

This is what's to like: when we got caught shorthanded in a desperate situation with a mini tropical revolving storm which built quicker than we could respond, we lived to tell the tale.

We got our first inkling of problems around dawn when we came on watch, and a bad feeling about the signs, but had problems getting rid of the heads'ls. We were cheesed off with the previous watch for not alerting us earlier, or asking for a second opinion , but I know what it can be like in the graveyard shift: things sneak up while you're zonked and muddling along, and hindsight is notorious for turning up late.

Anyway, we started behind the eight ball because they had not properly briefed us about problems they'd been having with the heads'ls, as a result of which, and the dramatic arrival of the storm, we ended up still with FULL main with the wind already double the maximum the boat (with that amount of sail) could realistically be asked to stand up to. Worse news: it was still building quickly.

Mercifully, the FULL main was actually an anaemic, underpowered and depowered main, typical Hood build for a Stoway rig: flat as a cupboard door, hollow leech and foot, (negative roach). The mast on that boat was also to far forrard, to my eye.

It all suddenly looked pretty damn good, though, even in that strange lighting I've never seen before or since.

The hull was light (alu) and low wetted surface (minimal fin, big spade, narrow waterline beam, U shaped bow sections), so we had that going for us as well.

We also had searoom in unlimited supply, so we had been running off since the moment we realised we had a serious problem.

So ... we used a trick I learned from a racing skipper when I was still a kid: early for the (downwind) start, in a lightish offshore race, he had me grind the boom into the middle of the boat. We were trimmed for lying head to wind, but heading DDW with minimal drive.

And this, luckily, worked for us in the building phase of the TRS, now with gusts up to 60 knots True, reduced by the fact that the boat was simultaneously planing (not surfing) up to 14 knots

Essentially the extra drive (over and above "bare poles") was limited to the 'skin friction' drag of the sail, because the projected area was as near as dammit zero.

But this made the boat controllable, until and unless the leech moved two feet sideways in the wrong direction, the wind crossed to the other side of the sail, and the heeling force was suddenly equal and opposite to the previous, steady state value.

Which, I'm pretty sure (and was not keen to be proved right), would have broached us into a cartwheel. It certainly would have had us swimming in the cockpit.

The helmsman was "in the zone". I have never known someone rise to a challenge like that boy did. He was a fit athlete, and he wasn't moving a muscle, but he was rather exhausted afterwards.

There were only three of us on deck and nobody could be spared to go down and bang heads and get more. The rotten sods were pretending to be asleep.

So us remaining two started carefully grinding that sail into the mast, and it was REALLY hard, partly because of the friction (the sail was on the wrong 'gybe', and despite its flatness and being ALMOST amidships, that made it bear hard on the side of the mast slot). So we had to substitute a two-man winch handle and both heave on it up to, and beyond, our somewhat puny Buster Bloodvessel limits, just to get the thing to move an inch.

... and partly because of a countervailing consideration: if the continuous line, or the winch, broke, we were cooked.

I say that because (for reasons I won't go into just now) the boat was temporarily in a precarious situation, offering unfettered opportunity for water from the cockpit to get below. If we spun out at that speed and tripped over our deep keel, the boat would sink almost immediately.

But the main inched into the mast, and the needle of the anemometer bent further around the peg (I thing the maximum it read was 70) and by the time we had most of it away, the wind hit the maximum which I would guess was 80 across the deck, and started to drop back.

- - - -

So I was a convert to the concept, if not the execution, of in-mast furling. It is, however, hopeless for light weather sails, as has been thoroughly traversed here.

My dream expedition boat would (and hopefully, will) have a full hoist heavy main which will double as a storm trysail, negative roach, furling inside the mast with STRONG furling gear.

The light mainsail, good for (and normally put away at) twenty knots but marginal for thirty, will be a modernised sliding gunter fat head, with a vertical leech, full length battens, and will furl around a horizontal mandrel.

This is not easy to arrange but I've pretty much cracked it, at the concept level and most of the detail, I think.

But it would not be a commercially attractive product, I also think.
__________________
Andrew Troup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2014, 20:43   #42
Registered User
 
Red Sky's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: S.F. Bay Area
Boat: Caliber 40 LRC
Posts: 335
Re: In Mast Furling

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholson58 View Post
The roller main furler will roll easily if the lead from the clew is good. Too high or too low and the material will bunch or bag. Mark your topping lift for the right spot. Also, make sure the foil is tight enough that it doesn't ride excessively tightly against the mast slot opening. Also be extremely careful that nothing else such as a flag halyard can get sucked in while it is furling. This happened to us once and it is instant disaster. One other time the storm tri-sail halyard was likewise pulled in. We have noticed that winding in the main may work better with port or starboard rotation depending on what side the boom is on. This can effect the friction during winding.



Glad to have your uncle come help hoist our 135% #1 - 280 pounds of 5-layer fusion membrane on an 80 foot mast. Flaked on a grassy field and tightly rolled the bag is 4 feet diameter by 4-1/2 feet long. It is not possible to flake it on deck and stuffed down below would fill the entire salon. This whole discussion depends heartily on the size of the vessel and sails as well as the crew that will operate it and how you will use it. Furling sails were made to make life easy on big boats and for short-handed and older sailors. They are not race equipment on most boats. We never drag wet sails below and we don't put ourselves at risk on a pitching deck. Our boom is 5 feet above the coach roof and the aft end is 7 feet over the cockpit. Lets see your uncle flake that main.



We do have light air inventory we manhandle to hoist. The mizzen staysail is good to about 10 apparent. Its easy to hoist & set since the conditions for its use are pretty benign with wind 90 to 160 degrees. The AS kite is mostly a 200% jib of about 110 #. We put a halyard on it inside the guest cabin and haul it through the port or stbd hatch just ahead of the mast using the Milwaukee power winch driver. It has an ATN sock. This year we are adding a 131.5 sq meter code zero - also with a sock.



Roller furling may not give you the greatest speed or efficiency but we get there in one piece, at pretty good speed and not beat up.

If he was still alive he may have a change of opinion pulling up a headsail that heavy.

I was really trying to make the point that the old timers didn't like/trust furling headsails when they came out either.

I have a furling main and I'm happy to live with the trade offs.
__________________
Red Sky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2014, 22:25   #43
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Western Med
Boat: 52' Crealock Farrington staysail schooner
Posts: 81
Re: In Mast Furling

Very entertaining post. Having grown up around sailboats and in the day when people were still building heavy displacement cruising boats without engines and excoriating all new technology, I appreciate the clean and simple systems. 50 foot traditional boat crew of 15 working their asses off. Hank on and off stow below.. Yikes Our current Love beast has a 35 year old Hood in mast furling main. I have to believe that the technology has gotten better but ours has served us mostly well with 2 atlantic crossings and many thousands of miles. maintenence and patience required. Quite fortunately our mast cavity allows for a heavy dacron sail. Some do not and you need a very light sail fabric to even fit in the cavity. The only other issue is fluting.. Never a problem on anchor but in a marina and OMG below decks without the goofy flute stopper Our mast humms like a banshee or an electric transformer about to explode. We can drop the sail onto the boom if we need to but never have. With a schooner rig we carry 5 sails all on furlers and when stowed below they take up a huge amount of room. We are sold on the technology, but of course as with everything else on a boat you need to know how to maintain and repair and have options if all else fails
__________________
barnaclejim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2014, 22:46   #44
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 25
Re: In Mast Furling

Quote:
Laziness. Only good excuse I see with in mast furling.

I am guilty of some laziness myself so I will go with lazy jacks and stack pack type system. Almost as easy to furl and store mainsail as in mast.

I do not want to take a chance with a jam if there is another easy way and I do not want weight up high in the mast.

However I have a manual windless and hand held lead line; )
STUPIDNESS - the only way to be stupid is not to have in-mast furling...sailing short handed - as i do - on a medium sized boat - the best way to enjoy "lazy" is have in-mast furling. stupid is as stupid does - to quote a gump

maybe you have a lot of people (friends or otherwise) to help you on a small boat - but on a medium sized boat with only my wife - i appreciate the convenience of in-mast furling
__________________
Mike

Beneteau Oceanis 50
MickBeth50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2014, 23:22   #45
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,758
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noreastern View Post
Laziness. Only good excuse I see with in mast furling.

I am guilty of some laziness myself so I will go with lazy jacks and stack pack type system. Almost as easy to furl and store mainsail as in mast.

I do not want to take a chance with a jam if there is another easy way and I do not want weight up high in the mast.

However I have a manual windless and hand held lead line; )
Laziness is not actually such a great rationale for in-mast furling, in my opinion. It's not that easy to use, requiring two people. Infinite reefing, reefing or unreefing without heading up, safety in heavy weather, are the main reasons. No faffing around on deck in heavy weather. Much easier to reduce sail in a blow (witness Andrews post above).

The lazy part is storage of the sail: perfect and effortless storage of the sail inside the mast - no flaking, no sail cover. Yes, that's very cool.
__________________

__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-Ítre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
furling, mast

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Attaching a Removable Inner Forestay to the Mast Weyalan Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 32 21-12-2013 07:05
Stepping O'day 17 Daysailer Mast Markjensen Monohull Sailboats 3 04-11-2012 19:14
Mast furling slot Pinched at spreaders ctsbillc Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 11 21-12-2011 20:05
Mast Came Down, Must Repair Acedude Construction, Maintenance & Refit 7 30-08-2011 14:01



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 22:33.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.