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Old 02-01-2014, 04:16   #31
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Re: In boom furling

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To me the roller furling boom is just an example of dumbing down sailing for the less competent who can't or won't learn to do it without the push button approach. admittedly my present sail boat is only 33ft but my recent single hander was a J/44 but both boats had simple main handling systems which cost very little and always worked.
How is using a RF main ( boom or in-mast) "dumbing down sailing" , anyone can raise a slab main, or reef it using single or double line reefing for example, its harding a brain teaser.

in-mast or Boon firing is just another and different way of handling the issues, some people like the continuously variable furling advantage. others like the ease of stowage or the lack of last jacks etc. Its all just down to preference, its not about dumbing down, all the same issue of sailing are present , irrespective of the method used to deploy and furl a mainsail.

Even if you convert to "push button" sailing, you still arn't dumbing down, because when is simply removing the need for physical effort "dumbing down".


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Old 02-01-2014, 05:33   #32
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Re: In boom furling

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
How is using a RF main ( boom or in-mast) "dumbing down sailing" , anyone can raise a slab main, or reef it using single or double line reefing for example, its harding a brain teaser.

in-mast or Boon firing is just another and different way of handling the issues, some people like the continuously variable furling advantage. others like the ease of stowage or the lack of last jacks etc. Its all just down to preference, its not about dumbing down, all the same issue of sailing are present , irrespective of the method used to deploy and furl a mainsail.

Even if you convert to "push button" sailing, you still arn't dumbing down, because when is simply removing the need for physical effort "dumbing down".


Dave
I have owned boats without furling (small boats, large boats etc), with in mast furling and now with the in boom furling. I don't claim to be an expert on any of these systems but in many ways the Leisure furl system has been both the most convenient and predictable, but at the same time the sailer must pay more attention to detail than with other systems. It is hardly a simple pushbutton operation. The boom angles need to be correct - the halyard and furling line tensions must be properly managed, and if you forget to release vang pressure or the hydraulic backstay, serious problems will emerge. The in mast furling systems simply don't perform very well when it comes to sailing (forget about roach) and cryptic problems can lead to jams that are extremely difficult to resolve. I have seen fewer mechanical problems with non-furling systems but operator error - particularly with lazy jacks are amusing to watch. Given our unfortunate (but now well understood) problems with luff tapes, I'm not sure I would make the same decision regarding purchasing a Leisure Furl - ask me in a few years after we have more experience with improvements we made to the system. For a while, I considered dumping the system and going with a basket boom and most likely a Dutchman system. I'm now much more confident that the Leisure Furl will work and we have learned a lot about how to effectively trim the sail while underway.
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Old 02-01-2014, 05:45   #33
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Re: In boom furling

personal having sailed quite a few different boats, I find few issues with in-mast furling , excluding those with in-mast vertical battens. Ive had quite a few issues over the years with fully battened mails.

As to sail area, thats never a problem on a boat designed from the ground up with the appropriate in-mast sail area to begin with , ( as most are today). It used to be more of an issue with the spate of retrofitted in-mast systems some years ago and people using recut mainsails.

I only sailed with on-in-boom ( and I can't remember the name) , I remember that the issue of keeping the boom at a particular angle was key to prevent the sail walking as it rolled up. It wasn't too obvious what to do , until we got the hang of it. We did find furling in wind also difficult to keep the luff from walking towards the mast.

I'm quite happy sailing in-mast, but only if Ive inspected and maintained it. The worst systems are some fully battened , single line reefing systems , the luff cringle never seems to get snugged down without a trip to the mast

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Old 02-01-2014, 12:34   #34
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Re: In boom furling

For those who don't want or need a boom furling SX I suggest another way. Some understanding of and thought about the process along with confidence in your boat and sailing ability is helpful to make this work. Also one shoe does not fit all and individual modification is often needed that's where the thought and understanding and challenge come in to play. There is nothing new or unique about what I suggest it just applies to the alternate of an expensive and complicated system the primary function of which is to raise lower and store the main sail. While I am not a big fan of in mast furling I point out that this subject is about in boom rigs. If I were to set up a modern motor sailor I would use in mast furling and as I see it many sailboats in cruse mode are used as motor sailors justifying this rig..The systems I use with individual variations per boat is based on the following. All halyards and controls for raising lowering and adjusting trim of main sail can be run to protected cockpit. These systems in many variations are nothing new and don't have to be described here and all can be done by the average boat owner DIY. For larger mains an electric winch or a plumbers right angle fitting on a high toque electric drill can be used to raise the main a self tailing winch helps but not essential all also well established techniques. Disappearing lazy jacks with or without incorporation into a sail cover are a key element. For those who do not wish to leave the cockpit these can be rigged to that purpose. Before leaving the dock mooring or pulling the hook the key planning and preparation takes place. You decide which side of the boom you want your sail to go up on. When the sail goes up you want to be close to the wind either close beat with your jib out or under power. Here is the critical but simple part. As part of your pre planning you have slightly loosened the lazy jacks on the intended(windward) side of the boom opposite the intended leeward side and you have pushed the bulk of the flaked main into the loosened LJ side. You have also made the LJ on the leeward side disappear. With understanding and practice these maneuvers are fast and simple. When the main sail is finally raised like this either under sail or power even a fully battened main will go up with ease with the exception of the last couple of feet where I usually like to use finer hand control on the halyard winch to tune the shape. Whether you sail with the LJ sx deployed or away is a matter of choice. Striking the main also has options. The main can go down between both lazy jacks or into the leeward unit while still under sail with the jib. Why do I like to raise and lower the main with the jib up and drawing? Without sail either dead in the water or under power your boat is more likely to get bounced around during the procedure on the other hand a good sailboat beating with just its jib in a reduced sail mode is to me a much more stable and predictable beast. Also while this process is going on I usually plan that the take down and jib sailing is all part of getting me to my destination. On boats that don't sail well with just the jib I employ the motor to help. While a autopilot is very helpful I have found on some well behaved boats alternative control works well. Sail covers if used either incorporated in LJ sx or separate wait to be employed under safe conditions dock-hook etc. I have owned and sailed on many boats from gaff to 20+k tri and have found ways to rig easy and safe main deployment single handed without the need of an expensive complicated and potentially troublesome RF boom. I suppose if I make it to 90 and am still sailing and become more feeble than I am now I will have to personally check out the improved version of the RF boom. At present I still enjoy the work and mental challenges of sailing and it is my opinion that most sailors who enjoy the challenge and physical aspects of sailing don't need a RF boom. It is also my personal opinion that too much of a good thing is too much and I think the RF boom qualifies there. It is no surprise to me that many sailors don't like the physical aspects of the pastime that is all well and good, but those who come to depend on things like RF booms and joy stick helm controls in my opinion are missing the basic essence of what sailing and boating can be about. Albert Einstein that old fox knew and somehow I doubt he would have needed a RF boom to make his day sailing.
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Old 02-01-2014, 12:52   #35
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Re: In boom furling

See was that so hard to do without calling people dumb or lazy?

While I disagree with you that a RF main takes away from sailing, I do respect that it is your opinion and that you like to do it a different way. Thank you for the description on how you do things now people can analyze your method and see if it is something they want to incorporate into their systems.
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Old 03-01-2014, 11:11   #36
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Re: In boom furling

Regarding my opinion about the RF boom dumbing down sailing no apologies. My statements are aimed at the system and its likely effect on the art of sailing. I believe this is a case of making the wrong statement in the wrong church. There were also some personal attacks with erroneous assumptions about how I boat because I also single hand. Even negative remarks about personality and they should not be here even if the individual has credentials to make such medical judgments. Now for the sake of logic and debate I offer the scenario of the electronics industry perceiving a market for a baseball bat with a sonar or radio frequency system that would allow almost anybody who can swing the bat to make Home run contact with even 100mph fast balls. The acronym for this gizmo we will label the RF bat. So this RF bat would negate the need for physical skills-training and experience when it comes to slamming a base ball. There may be a lot of people who would appreciate such a gizmo. It is my opinion and best judgment that such a RF bat would dumb down the sport of base ball and appeal to those who want to bypass the hard work and practice etc. needed to hit the ball without the RF gizmo. So back to the RF boom, While the RF boom is not a gizmo that will radically change the sport of sailing the way the RF bat would affect base ball I perceive it as a step in that direction. For those who attend my church of sailing it would represent a dumbing down and desire to avoid the mental and physical challenges of the sport. Obviously sailors are a diverse group and any given sailor may cross many boundaries. For those who for what ever reason are finding the raising lowering and storing of the mainsail onerous and dangerous so that they have turned to or contemplate the rather expensive RF boom I have an alternate recommendation. this recommendation comes not only from me but from many thousands of very experienced sailors who every year are buying fuel efficient power boats. I personally sail on a sail boat and cruise family time party and socialize on a power boat better suited to those endeavors.
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Old 03-01-2014, 11:17   #37
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Re: In boom furling

I don't think your comparison is valid, The baseball might be considered the same as same a fully automated sailboat , few do exist. But in-mast or RF are merely alternative forms of reefing and furling and still require all the skills of sail trim and sailing knowledge, Whether you pull a reef line, or I pull a furling line makes little or know difference to learning or skill levels.

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Old 03-01-2014, 12:03   #38
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Re: In boom furling

EYS-that has to be one of the most ridiculous analogies I've ever heard!!! The notion that it takes away the "mental and physical" challenges of sailing is ludicrous. First off you make it sound like you have an image of how to sail and if you don't follow that you are a slacker. Secondly by your notions the fact that you sail a sloop and not a square rigger makes you lazy. Why aren't you climbing the top sails and doing it the real old fashion way? explain that one.

And who are you to say that in order to "sail" you have to do it a certain way or else you are just a dumbed down version of a boater. Your comments go to show that you have some serious insecurities about your own life and need to prove it by being what you determine is the best and true way to do it.

You know the funny thing is my current boat has a slab reefing system but I unlike you, by no means am so egotistical to think or say that I am better or worse then anyone else. Those holier than thou comments are best kept to your self.

The even funnier thing is you made a comment about personal attacks on you when you right out of the gate called everyone that likes rf mains lazy and dumb. Your arrogance is unprecedented and uncalled for.
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Old 03-01-2014, 15:44   #39
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Re: In boom furling

Once again personal attacks when what's needed is more explanation why the RF system is better than its alternatives. Here is another why the RF boom is not necessarily better than alternatives. So a group of six sailors are out for sun and fun on a 42 ft something with a RF boom. The boom is fairly high and there is a large canvas cockpit enclosure a common situation. None of the crew or guest are deck apes but with the RF system deck apes not needed. Now a squall is noticed and boats with sail up ahead are going down and there is not enough water to run off. Murphy loves such situations and the more mechanically complicated with the need for greater alignment is just an invitation to murphy. Murphy attacks your main does not want to come down. Is this the moment you wished you had a simple lazy jack system with a good old fashioned down hall? So I have my questions about which system is truly the safer. I also see that my opinions belong in a different church this group still believes in stoning he who openly questions in ways they don't like. Good by I hope you each are not faced with Murphy as above. I have met Murphy in a similar experience fortunately I was a fair deck ape back then and got the RF sail down in time so my wife and two kids did not get the full knock down experience in Frances Drake Channel.
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Old 03-01-2014, 16:40   #40
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Re: In boom furling

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Eys- obviously nobody would put a rf main on a j boat. They're oriented for racing not cruising.

Now to say that rf mains are dumbing down sailing I'm sure will piss off more then a few people here. How does having a rf main make people dumber then you. What because we don't have a cunningham we're not real sailors. I currently have a slab reefing set up and would love a rf main because I like most people enjoy cruising with others and want a system of convenience and safety.

If I want to get back into racing I'll crew on a .....wait for it.... racing boat, not my cruiser where I enjoy company, friends and family alike including my very young son where I won't care about fixing every little sail trim and I'll enjoy just being out with him and my wife. I find your comments very offensive and ignorant. Most people on here know how to sail, trim, and fine tune (including myself) but that doesn't mean that we have to do it by ourselves every time we're out on the water. Are rf mains the most efficient? No of course not but for people that like to enjoy life and the company of others and not worry about other humans fuddling up their perfect sail trim a rf main is a great feature to have. I hope you enjoy your solo trips and fine tuning as we all do, but for a lot of us sailing is more about family and friends then about utmost efficiency and speed or how fast we can raise and lower our main sails.

Good for you though for being the fastest single handed main sail setter out there because that's what sailing is all about. But for me I'll stick to my dumbed down slower paced sailing style of company, relaxation, incompetent, push button I don't know what I'm doing because my main is still half way up while yours is already set style.

Touche. If there's one thing I've learn't from talking to other sailors is that there is no single perfect setup. It's the variation in what sailors like that makes the sailing community so damn interesting. Vive la difference.
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Old 07-01-2014, 04:57   #41
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Re: In boom furling

we started with an in boom furler and changed to slab. We like slab and to be honest we did not know much about furlers but i remember i used to swear alot and now i don't. We always had to fiddle with the angle of the boom and reefing gave us a main that was hard to flatten which is important. Now we have better sail shape but i did appreciate some aspects like staying in the cot pit on the RF.
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Old 07-01-2014, 08:00   #42
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Re: In boom furling

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Here is another why the RF boom is not necessarily better than alternatives. So a group of six sailors are out for sun and fun on a 42 ft something with a RF boom. The boom is fairly high and there is a large canvas cockpit enclosure a common situation. None of the crew or guest are deck apes but with the RF system deck apes not needed. Now a squall is noticed and boats with sail up ahead are going down and there is not enough water to run off. Murphy loves such situations and the more mechanically complicated with the need for greater alignment is just an invitation to murphy. Murphy attacks your main does not want to come down. Is this the moment you wished you had a simple lazy jack system with a good old fashioned down hall? So I have my questions about which system is truly the safer. I also see that my opinions belong in a different church this group still believes in stoning he who openly questions in ways they don't like. Good by I hope you each are not faced with Murphy as above. I have met Murphy in a similar experience fortunately I was a fair deck ape back then and got the RF sail down in time so my wife and two kids did not get the full knock down experience in Frances Drake Channel.
Why would a roller furling main not come down, it has no more holding it up then a slab reefing system?. Your comments might apply to inmast, but even in-mast tends to jam coming out not going in.


Sorry, your making up mad cap scenarios to justify your position.

"knockdown in the BVI , francis drake channel, what were you doing in a hurricane, cause outside of that , theres hardly a puff there.
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Old 07-01-2014, 08:03   #43
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Re: In boom furling

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Sorry, your making up mad cap scenarios to justify your position.
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Old 07-01-2014, 08:27   #44
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Re: In boom furling

While on the topic of roller furling booms, I have a question. I just purchased an older boat with the older style roller boom. You put a crank on the boom at the tack and roll the sail up around the boom.

How would I attach a boom vang to this type of boom?
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Old 07-01-2014, 08:54   #45
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Re: In boom furling

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While on the topic of roller furling booms, I have a question. I just purchased an older boat with the older style roller boom. You put a crank on the boom at the tack and roll the sail up around the boom.

How would I attach a boom vang to this type of boom?
You wouldn't. Not unless you convert to slab reefing.

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