In boom furling

[ontherocks83]

Originally Posted by CarlF

I've been very happy with the Schaefer system. In four years it has never hung up - much less jammed. Battens make the sail shape much better than in mast furling. Things to consider:

A common complaint of boom furling systems is that the luff tape has to be replaced every year or two. The Schaefer's pivoting track keeps this from happening. If you go with another brand, ask about luff tape concerns.

With all boom furling systems, the boom has to be at a fixed angle or the sail will "walk" as it rolls. The easiest and most common solution is to use a rigid kicker set to the correct angle. We haven't touched our kicker since the sail was new.

Plan to get a new mainsail. There's an art to cutting these sails both to furl well and to set well. Getting the leach right is especially important since you can't move the boom up and down to adjust leach tension underway. Find a sailmaker who's done a lot of boom furling sails.

Arrange your lines so you can control both the halyard and the furling line at the same time. We have a winch for the loaded line and a small snubbing winch for the unloaded line - a wrap around a cleat would be fine too. This is especially important when lowering the sail. You want to keep tension on the halyard so that the sail rolls smoothly in the boom without folds.

That's really good to hear. I've been researching the Schaefer system for a while and have been really impressed with what I've found but you always have to be skeptical of what the website says.

If you don't mind me asking how big is your boat and what was your total install cost? I've heard prices ranging from 15-20k for a soup to nuts install and am curious if that is accurate.

[sogin]

Originally Posted by Paul Elliott

What kind of pre-feeder do you have between the drum and the mast slot? In my original Leisurefurl installation we had a pivoting aluminum pre-feeder that would bind and tear the sail at the lufftape when we were hoisting in certain conditions. This was replaced with a flexible plastic feeder and we no longer have that problem.

We had some pretty bad teething pains with the Leisurefurl. We had to replace the feeder, the mast slot, the lufftape -- all these had to be changed as they worked out the kinks in their design. That was eight or ten years ago. Since then the system has performed well.

It's still probably not as bulletproof as a more traditional mainsail system.

The pre feeder is stainless tied mated to the end of the track and tied to a leash that allows lateral and forward aft movement of the feeder. The system was installed in 2012.

[sogin]

Originally Posted by CarlF

I've been very happy with the Schaefer system. In four years it has never hung up - much less jammed. Battens make the sail shape much better than in mast furling. Things to consider:

A common complaint of boom furling systems is that the luff tape has to be replaced every year or two. The Schaefer's pivoting track keeps this from happening. If you go with another brand, ask about luff tape concerns.

With all boom furling systems, the boom has to be at a fixed angle or the sail will "walk" as it rolls. The easiest and most common solution is to use a rigid kicker set to the correct angle. We haven't touched our kicker since the sail was new.

Plan to get a new mainsail. There's an art to cutting these sails both to furl well and to set well. Getting the leach right is especially important since you can't move the boom up and down to adjust leach tension underway. Find a sailmaker who's done a lot of boom furling sails.

Arrange your lines so you can control both the halyard and the furling line at the same time. We have a winch for the loaded line and a small snubbing winch for the unloaded line - a wrap around a cleat would be fine too. This is especially important when lowering the sail. You want to keep tension on the halyard so that the sail rolls smoothly in the boom without folds.

One of my colleagues has a leisure furl system and the main is 5 or 6 years old. He has not had to replace the luff rope. And with respect to sail adjustments, it is possible to change tension on the leach by changing the topping lift and boom vang tension as long as you remember to bring the boom back to the proper angle prior to furling. The other adjustments include change halyard tension and flattening the sail by rolling the mandrel via the furling line. I agree that working with an experience sail maker is important.

[eyschulman]

I have never used one but I have sailed by many boats raising and dowsing different boom systems. I am certain my sail will be up and down much faster and safer than any system I have seen in part because I am a very experienced single hander and there is no crew to create a snafu. I also make sails for a hobby and don't particularly like the typical shape of the sails I see.The only advantages I can see for the furling Sx is that there is no need for the sail cover which I must put on after I dock or anchor. There is also the advantage of easing the anxiety of the greener or less able sailor and this is a sales incentive for the units and boats so equipped. Like it or not boating is moving toward a push button computer game like endeavor and new boats and equipment are being advertised and sold that way particularly motor boats and to some extent sail boats. The end game is to sit on your sofa watching football with beer and chips while you sail your boat around the harbor with an app on your I phone.

[DRS]

We have a Profurl on our cat. Did not set out to buy a boat with it but it came with the boat. After 5 years I can say I would definitely do it again. The only issue we have ever had was the out haul broke and allowed the sail to move up the drum to quickly when we were dropping it. It caused the battens to twist and jam up. Solution. drop the sail like a normal one and flake it over the boom and tie it off. EASY

[Kenomac]

We had a Profurl on our previous Hunter 450, it worked great. It made dealing with the mainsail very easy.

Ken

[ontherocks83]

Originally Posted by eyschulman

I have never used one but I have sailed by many boats raising and dowsing different boom systems. I am certain my sail will be up and down much faster and safer than any system I have seen in part because I am very experienced single hander and there is no crew to create a snafu. I also make sails for a hobby and don't particularly like the typical shape of the sails I see.The only advantages I can see for the furling Sx is that there is no need for the sail cover which I must put on after I dock or anchor. There is also the advantage of easing the anxiety of the greener or less able sailor and this is a sales incentive for the units and boats so equipped. Like it or not boating is moving toward a push button computer game like endeavor and new boats and equipment are being advertised and sold that way particularly motor boats and to some extent sail boats. The end game is to sit on your sofa watching football with beer and chips while you sail your boat around the harbor with an app on your I phone.

I absolutely understand about being proud of single handing a slab reefing system, however its also like saying anyone with a roller furling head sail is lazy where in my opinion it is plainly just safer so you don't have to go on deck in rough seas. You said you've never used one so how can you compare how "fast" it or you would be? My current boat has a slab system but you bet my next one will have a roller furling main if for nothing else crew safety when the seas are rough and don't want to risk lives because of bravdo and "speed"

[eyschulman]

Originally Posted by ontherocks83

I absolutely understand about being proud of single handing a slab reefing system, however its also like saying anyone with a roller furling head sail is lazy where in my opinion it is plainly just safer so you don't have to go on deck in rough seas. You said you've never used one so how can you compare how "fast" it or you would be? My current boat has a slab system but you bet my next one will have a roller furling main if for nothing else crew safety when the seas are rough and don't want to risk lives because of bravdo and "speed"

In reply- What makes you think I have to go out on the deck to raise or lower sails? I would think my judgment on speed of raising or lowering a sail as compared to my rig is better made from my boat watching others still messing with their rig while mine is fully up or down. Regarding roller furling jibs-while the shape of such sails is often sub optimal the advantages do often outweigh the negative aspects and I do use the system. I even used a roller furling jib with battens. My problem with the roller furling boom and main is that it is not really better than other systems Just more complicated slower and more prone to problems. I would think a capable(not handicapped) and knowledgeable sailor and rigger would do much better with other systems for main sail handling and those systems are much less costly often easily repaired or modified. To me the roller furling boom is just an example of dumbing down sailing for the less competent who can't or won't learn to do it without the push button approach. admittedly my present sail boat is only 33ft but my recent single hander was a J/44 but both boats had simple main handling systems which cost very little and always worked. Now I won't see 75 again but still I doubt a boat with RF main will raise or lower its main as fast or safe as the simple rig on my J/44 or even my present boat. My thing against the RF boom is not because it's new fangled I love new and better. It's just that the RF is not better It's just new fangled but it will sell because many sailors are not understanding or afraid of their mainsails.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by Paul Elliott

I've got a boom-furler and it works well. The boom angle isn't all that difficult, I just slack the spring-loaded vang and ease the mainsheet and the boom sits at the proper angle. Getting the boom angle close, and keeping a little tension on the main halyard are sufficient for a good furl.

The only time I have difficulty is if I try to do a full furl or very deep reef when running downwind in strong wind. I can do a first or second (and maybe third) reef, but if I roll up more than that the sail tends to wind itself forward ("wind" as in wrap around the furling drum), which is hard on the batten pockets. If I'm really careful with angles and tensions I can usually do it without having to turn upwind.

Sail shape is quite good actually. We have full battens, and the way the main is cut (and the way it is attached to the furling drum) means we have a full sail shape in light air, and when the wind picks up we do a half-roll on the furler to flatten the main. The shape remains good even at the third reef point.

The system uses a lufftape, so there is some friction. I highly recommend a powered winch for the main halyard. You can always crank it up by hand, but it's a chore.

32 Fisher with a Leisurefurl and I second the coments here. Took a little time to get to know the boom angle etc but all is good. I don't have a need for the powered winch, the effort on my boat is not excessive.
Also agree with the comment about a sailmaker familiar with the product, my guy had sailed and made sail for boats with this system and has been a wealth of knowledge.

[Paul Elliott]

Originally Posted by eyschulman

To me the roller furling boom is just an example of dumbing down sailing for the less competent who can't or won't learn to do it without the push button approach.

Judgmental much?

Perhaps some of have experience with traditional main systems and prefer a modern main-furler?

Just sayin'...

[ontherocks83]

Eys- obviously nobody would put a rf main on a j boat. They're oriented for racing not cruising.

Now to say that rf mains are dumbing down sailing I'm sure will piss off more then a few people here. How does having a rf main make people dumber then you. What because we don't have a cunningham we're not real sailors. I currently have a slab reefing set up and would love a rf main because I like most people enjoy cruising with others and want a system of convenience and safety.

If I want to get back into racing I'll crew on a .....wait for it.... racing boat, not my cruiser where I enjoy company, friends and family alike including my very young son where I won't care about fixing every little sail trim and I'll enjoy just being out with him and my wife. I find your comments very offensive and ignorant. Most people on here know how to sail, trim, and fine tune (including myself) but that doesn't mean that we have to do it by ourselves every time we're out on the water. Are rf mains the most efficient? No of course not but for people that like to enjoy life and the company of others and not worry about other humans fuddling up their perfect sail trim a rf main is a great feature to have. I hope you enjoy your solo trips and fine tuning as we all do, but for a lot of us sailing is more about family and friends then about utmost efficiency and speed or how fast we can raise and lower our main sails.

Good for you though for being the fastest single handed main sail setter out there because that's what sailing is all about. But for me I'll stick to my dumbed down slower paced sailing style of company, relaxation, incompetent, push button I don't know what I'm doing because my main is still half way up while yours is already set style.

[eyschulman]

Ontherocks83; So if a RF main makes sailing easier and more relaxing why am I seeing so many boats struggling to raise and lower their RF mains? So why would a sailor opt for a more complex and costly system? Is the relaxing part the need for slow careful engagement of the system to avoid a snafu? When I owned a gaffer with two halyards(throat and peak) It was still simpler and easier and relaxing to set and raise then what I have often observed regarding RF mains(all done from the cockpit). Since I sail in a place with lots of well equipped moneyed boats I get to observe the raising and setting of RF mains on a fairly regular basis. As with so many other issues related to our age of mechanical and electronic development the drive for development is often related to advertising hype and the perception that everything must advance toward the push button solution. That other people want and like the RF does not make it a better system It is definitely a profitable one to sell.

[ontherocks83]

Eys- and yet again your argument is off of observation not actual use! In the scientific community that would mean you have no control group and your findings would be incomplete, inadequate, not up to par. In other words until you use a rf system particularly a newer one for modern day arguments sake, you have Zero case.......(I saw people "struggling" so my way is better means nothing)....the only reason I got into this argument with you in the first place is due to your arrogance and how you project that unless you use slab reefing you are dim witted, lazy, and only for people that can handle dumbed down sailing (whatever that means).

You make comments as if your opinions are right and anybody that disagrees is obviously not as competent and smart as you. Further more in the grand scheme of things if it takes an extra minute to raise and lower sails with out having to go on deck (which I doubt would take that long with a new schaefer system for example) then what is the harm? Again I award you the fastest main sail raiser award. Congratulations I'm sure noone will challenge you so the trophy is all yours for the taking.

Ultimately there are plenty of people that have commented here that said they love their rf system (people that have experience with it unlike you) so in reality the only legitmate argument you could make is that you love your slab system and then you could explain how you have set it up so people could take that into consideration. But no you went with the my way is smart and your way is lazy approach only proving you are arrogant. Why couldn't you have just said this is what I do and why I like it. Everyone would be receptive to that and appreciate your comment. The only thing you have done is prove what your personality is really like and why people shouldn't listen to you.

I hope you have fun sailing as we all should, but unlike you I believe that if you are having fun and being safe then you're doing everything right!!! whether you are in a laser, a beneteau, a j boat, a motor sailor hybrid, or a 19' chaparall entry level H20 bow rider speed boat there is no wrong answer just preferences.

[CarlF]

To the "dumbing down" questions. It's pretty arrogant to trash a system that you've apparently never used. It's very rare to find anyone who has owned a boat with either in-mast or boom furling who would consider going back to slab. I think I've used just about every mainsail system in 50 years of sailing including:

Two blocks on the quarter (Oday Widgeon)
Gaff rigged Herreshoff 12 with mast hoops and reef points
Roller boom with the main sheet held by that old swiveling jaw system
Three boats with slab reefing - one a Doyle stackpack
In-mast Selden with full length vertical battens
Schaefer boom furling on main and mizzen (53ft ketch)

The Schaefer is BY FAR my favorite for short-handed cruising. If you've got a fully crewed race boat, there are better solutions.

[CarlF]

Sogin - glad your friend's luff tape lasted well. Leisurefurl is a great system but the lufftape stories were one of the things that steered me to Schaefer since they had obviously gone through a lot of design work on just this problem area.

Ontherocks - It was a new boat and the cost was buried in the boat price. I would negotiate a good price with a sailmaker for the whole system installed to avoid later finger pointing games. I'd also call Schaefer and ask which sailmakers in your area have more experience.

Carl