Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 27-08-2013, 11:37   #1
Registered User
 
OldPelican's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Austin, TX
Boat: Watkins 27
Posts: 61
I'm thinking about changing "Usqy's" rig

My MS Paint, cut and paste, "artist" rendition

The mast will be raked forward a trifle so gravity can assist in holding the sail out. whaddya think?

__________________

__________________
OldPelican is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-08-2013, 11:39   #2
Registered User
 
Khagan1227's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Kansas City, MO
Boat: In the hunt again, unknown
Posts: 1,330
Re: I'm thinking about changing "Usqy's" rig

Looks like a piece of "junk" to me.. (pun intended)
__________________

Khagan1227 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-08-2013, 11:51   #3
Senior Cruiser
 
skipmac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: 29° 49.16’ N 82° 25.82’ W
Boat: Pearson 422
Posts: 12,374
Re: I'm thinking about changing "Usqy's" rig

Personally I've never been a fan of non-standard rigs except for some very specific situations. My thoughts are that there is a reason why 99% of the boats have a Bermuda rig and going to gaffs and junk rigs, square rigs and such you will almost always give up a good deal of something, whether it's overall performance, close hauled performance, ease of handling, cost, weight, something.

However, the bottom line is boating isn't only about efficiency and performance, it's about what you want. Unless you're in the charter business or hauling copra from some tiny South Sea Island, sailing is about what makes you happy and what you enjoy.

If you like a junk rig it's an interesting option and does offer some advantages (and disadvantages) over a sloop rig. At least in my case, I would want a naval architect to check on the details so I don't end up with a boat that's horribly unstable, has huge weather helm or something else unintended.
__________________
The water is always bluer on the other side of the ocean.
skipmac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-08-2013, 12:26   #4
Senior Cruiser
 
Vasco's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Toronto
Boat: CS36Merlin, "La Belle Aurore" Ben393 "Breathless"
Posts: 7,135
Re: I'm thinking about changing "Usqy's" rig

How're you going to step that mast?
__________________
Rick I
Toronto in summer, Bahamas in winter.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/beneteau393/
Vasco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-08-2013, 13:55   #5
Registered User
 
denverd0n's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 3,949
Images: 6
Re: I'm thinking about changing "Usqy's" rig

Well, you asked, so...

I think that unless you are a naval architect--and understand all of the engineering principles related to center of effort, center of balance, and so on--then you are asking to spend a whole lot of money to get nothing but a whole lot of disappointment.
__________________
denverd0n is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-08-2013, 14:08   #6
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 959
Re: I'm thinking about changing "Usqy's" rig

Looks like a tabernacle step to me. Is the boat designed for that? Even if so, will it support the loads of a junk rig? I'd heard the junk is a very effective sail plan which I translate into increased loads on the mast and step.
__________________
Richard5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-08-2013, 14:15   #7
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 959
Re: I'm thinking about changing "Usqy's" rig

Quote:
Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
Personally I've never been a fan of non-standard rigs except for some very specific situations. My thoughts are that there is a reason why 99% of the boats have a Bermuda rig and going to gaffs and junk rigs, square rigs and such you will almost always give up a good deal of something, whether it's overall performance, close hauled performance, ease of handling, cost, weight, something.

However, the bottom line is boating isn't only about efficiency and performance, it's about what you want. Unless you're in the charter business or hauling copra from some tiny South Sea Island, sailing is about what makes you happy and what you enjoy.

If you like a junk rig it's an interesting option and does offer some advantages (and disadvantages) over a sloop rig. At least in my case, I would want a naval architect to check on the details so I don't end up with a boat that's horribly unstable, has huge weather helm or something else unintended.
Addressing your comment in bold: don't forget marketing. Everything from tail fins on cars to the less efficient swept tail fin of a Cessna to the brand of sheets you sleep on...are greatly influenced by marketing. I suspect this includes sail plans on production boats.

Look at it another way, why does 99% (made up number) of Asia use junk rigs? If you answer, 'tradition' I say it wouldn't become tradition unless it had satisfactory level of efficiency.

You wanna match race, how 'bout a junk and Bermuda rig of equal length?
__________________
Richard5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-08-2013, 14:25   #8
Don't ask if you can't handle it
 
sailorboy1's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: On the boat somewhere
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 12,310
Re: I'm thinking about changing "Usqy's" rig

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldPelican View Post
whaddya think?

would look better if it was blue
__________________
jobless, houseless, clueless, living on a boat and cruising around somewhere
sailorboy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-08-2013, 14:28   #9
Registered User
 
Hydra's Avatar

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Lorient, Brittany, France
Boat: Gib'Sea 302, 30' - Hydra
Posts: 1,229
Re: I'm thinking about changing "Usqy's" rig

I see:
- a sure tendancy to weather helm when going downwind, because the center of aerodynamic effort will move to leeward of the center of hydrodynamic effort
- a sure lack of width in the mast area to attach the shrouds
- a probable lack of strength in the hull to resist the loads transmitted by the mast and the shrouds
- a possible lack of transverse stability because the centre of aerodynamic effort is much higher than with a Marconi rig with the same sail area
- a possible problem with trim resulting from moving the mast weight forward
- the V-berth unusable

Alain
__________________
Hydra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-08-2013, 14:31   #10
Senior Cruiser
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 11,447
Re: I'm thinking about changing "Usqy's" rig

All of the vessels with free standing rigs that I have been aboard had MASSIVE structures below decks to handle the loads imparted by the large cantilevered loads generated by these rigs.

How are you planning to retrofit such a structure?

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II , lying Port Cygnet, Tasmania once again
Jim Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-08-2013, 15:11   #11
CF Adviser
 
Bash's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: sausalito
Boat: 14 meter sloop
Posts: 7,260
Re: I'm thinking about changing "Usqy's" rig

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hydra View Post
I see:
- a sure tendancy to weather helm when going downwind, because the center of aerodynamic effort will move to leeward of the center of hydrodynamic effort
I disagree. I think the boat will have horrible lee helm, which results from when the center of effort moves forward of the center of resistance. This will be magnified by moving all that weight forward, which will result in bow-down trim, which will pull that undersize rudder a bit more out of the water.

Of course, there will be less weight forward if the OP cuts out the v-berth and has a carbon-fibre mast built. At that point, the project could be called, "How to spend $50,000 to turn a $5,000 boat into a worthless junk."
__________________
cruising is entirely about showing up--in boat shoes.
Bash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-08-2013, 15:12   #12
Registered User
 
OldPelican's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Austin, TX
Boat: Watkins 27
Posts: 61
Re: I'm thinking about changing "Usqy's" rig

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hydra View Post
I see:
- a sure tendancy to weather helm when going downwind, because the center of aerodynamic effort will move to leeward of the center of hydrodynamic effort

And yet there are, and have been for millenia, thousands of lug, lateen, crab claw etc. rigs sailing with no such probplem. It's a matter of the mast placement and sail design right.

- a sure lack of width in the mast area to attach the shrouds

It's a free standing mast.

- a probable lack of strength in the hull to resist the loads transmitted by the mast and the shrouds

A) Watkins hulls are overbuilt and B) While the mast is heavier, there is actually less compression load without the shrouds trying to bow-and-arrow it through the bottom.

- a possible lack of transverse stability because the centre of aerodynamic effort is much higher than with a Marconi rig with the same sail area

The center of effort is actually lower on this type of rig and the mast is shorter than an equivalent Marconi.

- a possible problem with trim resulting from moving the mast weight forward

I'll be moving the water tankage out of the v-berth and sufficiently aft.

- the V-berth unusable

In my opinion, most v-berths are unusable. In any event, I never intend to use it as a berth anyway. It's still usable for many other things
What interests me about such rigs is there ease of handling in all conditions by a superannuated singlehander like me

Oh, and they're extremely cheap :P
__________________
OldPelican is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-08-2013, 15:18   #13
Registered User
 
Teknav's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Texas - USA
Boat: Twin Otter de Havilland Floatplane
Posts: 1,838
Re: I'm thinking about changing "Usqy's" rig

For this kind of sail structure on this boat, he/she'd better have a 10 ft keel, at least.

Mauritz
Knows and sees all...
__________________
Retired - Don't Ask Me To Do A Damn Thing!
Teknav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-08-2013, 15:24   #14
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 17,314
Re: I'm thinking about changing "Usqy's" rig

I can think of at least 3 cases when our friends converted, or sold, their junk rigs. Why?

This much said, I like the rig and I think if it is executed well, it makes plenty of sense in some situations.

I say go for it and see if it works for you.

b.
__________________
barnakiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-08-2013, 15:53   #15
Senior Cruiser
 
skipmac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: 29° 49.16’ N 82° 25.82’ W
Boat: Pearson 422
Posts: 12,374
Re: I'm thinking about changing "Usqy's" rig

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard5 View Post
Addressing your comment in bold: don't forget marketing. Everything from tail fins on cars to the less efficient swept tail fin of a Cessna to the brand of sheets you sleep on...are greatly influenced by marketing. I suspect this includes sail plans on production boats.
Marketing is exactly the reason that I am sure the standard Bermuda rig is the best all around. If the the junk rig or any other rig was clearly superior then it is 100% certain that some enterprising entrepreneur would realize it, build a boat with that rig and sell more boats than all the other stupid boat builders that were too wrapped up in their hype to see the holy grail of rigs.

In recent years I have seen boats with unstayed masts, wishbone booms, A-frame masts, single masts, double masts, masts at the bow, wing sails, wing masts, verticle rotating wind turbines, masts in the middle, even no mast kite sails on boats. If some rig was so much better and didn't have some significant drawback or compromise then someone would be selling it and getting rich.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard5 View Post
Look at it another way, why does 99% (made up number) of Asia use junk rigs? If you answer, 'tradition' I say it wouldn't become tradition unless it had satisfactory level of efficiency.
Because that rig fills a need in that market. They are easy to handle, cheap and simple to build and rig, can use very cheap sails to get reasonable performance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard5 View Post
You wanna match race, how 'bout a junk and Bermuda rig of equal length?
Don't have time, not a racer, don't have a junk rig to bring to the table but feel free to set it up. But think about it, in the past 20 years or so there have plenty of races with no restrictions on rig. How many of them even had a junk rig entered? None that I know of.
__________________

__________________
The water is always bluer on the other side of the ocean.
skipmac is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 21:17.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.