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Old 27-08-2013, 16:01   #16
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Re: I'm thinking about changing "Usqy's" rig

I’ve long had an interest in junk rigs. Although I’ve never owned one I have been toying with the idea especially as some of the newer thinking has reduced some of the intrinsic problems.

You’ve probably know this but just in case…
Read Practical Junk Rig. It’s dated but has a lot of practical information, especially how to balance the rig.
Join The Junk Rig Association. Lots of good information there from people who have actually done it. Particularly read the cambered sail articles by Arne Kverneland and the split junk rig articles by Slieve McGilliard
Join the Yahoo junk rig group

Let us know how it goes, there are too many average white boats out there.
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Old 27-08-2013, 16:51   #17
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Re: I'm thinking about changing "Usqy's" rig

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Marketing is exactly the reason that I am sure the standard Bermuda rig is the best all around.
I did not mean marketing is the only reason but that it does exert considerable influence. I was not in disagreement with your comments.

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If the the junk rig or any other rig was clearly superior then it is 100% certain that some enterprising entrepreneur would realize it, build a boat with that rig and sell more boats than all the other stupid boat builders that were too wrapped up in their hype to see the holy grail of rigs.
Is that vitriol in your comments? Even in these 'enlightened' days of superior technology (computational fluid dynamics, superior materials and tooling) we still see sail plans of ever color. My original comment was to postulate that the Marconi rig is so prevalent because when the occidental mind thinks of 'sailboat' they think of single masted sloops. Which begat which I don't know but that is for another time and place.

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If some rig was so much better and didn't have some significant drawback or compromise then someone would be selling it and getting rich.
I'm not in defense of a certain sail plan but I will say that a single option is more conducive to production. Does that account for all boats? No, but as most boats are from a production line I would say it should be considered that the mfgs have lead the charge of the Marconi rising to a prominent position.



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Because that rig fills a need in that market. They are easy to handle, cheap and simple to build and rig, can use very cheap sails to get reasonable performance.
Indeed, some plans are much simpler than others. A gaff rigged sloop is more complex than a Bermuda rig. They are both sloops and this doesn't even mention the more complex rigs. Even the unstayed cat boat is rather simple in plan but it does sail differently.

Anyway, the guy wants to experiment with his boat. I say go for it. After all, it's only a 27' production hull, the loads should be manageable for a single person. Whether the junk rig will work for him is to be decided but isn't that half the fun of a project in work?

Maybe a visit to the local university to run some computational modeling would pay off. But don't be dissuaded from the project.



As for match racing of a junk and Bermuda rigged sloop, I left out the word, "see", as in, do you want to see a match race? By omitting the word I see how it would look like I had challenged another to a race.
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Old 27-08-2013, 19:19   #18
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Re: I'm thinking about changing "Usqy's" rig

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I did not mean marketing is the only reason but that it does exert considerable influence. I was not in disagreement with your comments.
Yes I understood that, but your post sounded like you at least considered marketing as a significant influence in forcing a possibly less effective rig onto a gullible public. I was only pointing out some of the other effects of marketing or capitalism that may be more beneficial and counteract the negative aspects.

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Is that vitriol in your comments?
Uh, no?? Not even slightly. Certainly a bit of mockery but only in good humor.


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My original comment was to postulate that the Marconi rig is so prevalent because when the occidental mind thinks of 'sailboat' they think of single masted sloops.
Yes that is what I understood your post to mean and my reply was meant to say that I believe that that rig, with today's technology offers the best compromise of strength, efficiency, performance and cost. To me this is demonstrated by the fact that in a very competitive marketplace where innovation is common and there exists a significant customer base willing to try new technology and yet no other rig has gained any significant market share in the cruising world or ocean racing (America's Cup, wing sails and similar excepted).

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Indeed, some plans are much simpler than others. A gaff rigged sloop is more complex than a Bermuda rig. They are both sloops and this doesn't even mention the more complex rigs. Even the unstayed cat boat is rather simple in plan but it does sail differently.
Well yes all true but I don't understand your point in saying this?


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Anyway, the guy wants to experiment with his boat. I say go for it.
Well yes again, I said the same thing so see no disagreement.

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Originally Posted by Richard5 View Post
After all, it's only a 27' production hull, the loads should be manageable for a single person. Whether the junk rig will work for him is to be decided but isn't that half the fun of a project in work?

Maybe a visit to the local university to run some computational modeling would pay off. But don't be dissuaded from the project.
But it does seem at least polite to point out that this may be a very expensive and/or time consuming project and if not done right, could result in a boat that sail very poorly or worse.


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As for match racing of a junk and Bermuda rigged sloop, I left out the word, "see", as in, do you want to see a match race? By omitting the word I see how it would look like I had challenged another to a race.
OK. Would be interesting to see the results of such a race but I have a pretty good idea what the results might be.
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Old 27-08-2013, 20:23   #19
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Re: I'm thinking about changing "Usqy's" rig

Hoo, boy! Where do I begin?

Most production boats are Bermudian rigged because that, until recently, has been the most successful racing rig. Most sailboat buyers want a boat that looks and behaves a little like the racers they admire. Boats they can take out on the bay or the lake and "go fast".

Bermudian rigs have one and only one advantage over most other rigs: they go to windward like "smoke and oakum", will point close and tack like a whip cracking. They perform as well as any rig on any kind of a reach too. Downwind, they can't get out of their own way without the assistance of a big, unwieldly and expensive balloon sail dragging them through the water. In light airs, well, that's what the iron genny is for.

Traditional junk rigs don't go to windward worth a damn and need 100-110 degrees to tack. Modern, cambered designs have mostly made up this deficiency. On a reach, a junk rigged boat will at least match any other rig and downwind is where it walks away from them. downwind, a junk rigged boat will still be under full sail when the wind pipes up enough to cause the triangular crowd to douse their spinnakers.

Ladies and gentlemen, I'm a cruiser, not a racer. I expect to sail downwind, more or less, as much as possible. I'm also old and not much inclined, anymore, to sort through sailbags in a locker, lugging them forward, doing the foredeck dance and lugging the sail I( just doused back to the locker.

With a junk-rigged boat, there's no need to ever go up onto the foredeck underway. There's no expensive, wet and moldy sails in the lockers either. The only sail is permanently deployed.

There are only two control lines, a halyard and a mainsheet, and both are led to the cockpit. Reefing is basically releasing the halyard until the requisite number of panels are stacked in the lazyjacks on their battens and lashing down the ends from the cockpit. Tacking requires only putting the helm down, which, incidentally, makes short-tacking up a narrow channel a pleasure. On a boat my size, winches are purely optional.

I don't want to work the boat. I want the boat to work.
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Old 27-08-2013, 21:57   #20
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Re: I'm thinking about changing "Usqy's" rig

Mr Pelican, congratulations on your decision to install this fine proven rig. Everytime I see a thread on CF about reefing and downwind sailing troubles I wonder what is the point of marconi rigs when they are so much trouble.

For the naysayers in this thread, here's a link to race reports of a racing junk (a fast racing hull) in Norway. She has no trouble racing to the windward mark thats for sure..
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Old 28-08-2013, 00:53   #21
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Re: I'm thinking about changing "Usqy's" rig

very easy to sail most of those who knock them have never sailed them I think they make a great deal of sense.Reefing from the cockpit even when sailing downwind is a breeze,Great idea to change over go for it.
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Old 28-08-2013, 08:24   #22
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Re: I'm thinking about changing "Usqy's" rig

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldPelican View Post
Most production boats are Bermudian rigged because that, until recently, has been the most successful racing rig. Most sailboat buyers want a boat that looks and behaves a little like the racers they admire. Boats they can take out on the bay or the lake and "go fast".
Hi Old Pelican,

First let me emphasize that I applaud your interest in trying rigs other than the common Bermuda rigs. However, I think you seriously underestimate the ability of most sailors to think beyond hype, publicity and fancy racing designs. I can assure you that for myself and the majority of cruisers I have known over the years, what is popular or successful in the world of racing has zero to do with our choice of rig or boat design. That is not to say that trickle down of technology is not appreciated or used but only when that technology proves to be useful and reliable in a cruising boat.



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Originally Posted by OldPelican View Post
Bermudian rigs have one and only one advantage over most other rigs: they go to windward like "smoke and oakum", will point close and tack like a whip cracking. They perform as well as any rig on any kind of a reach too. Downwind, they can't get out of their own way without the assistance of a big, unwieldly and expensive balloon sail dragging them through the water. In light airs, well, that's what the iron genny is for.

Traditional junk rigs don't go to windward worth a damn and need 100-110 degrees to tack. Modern, cambered designs have mostly made up this deficiency. On a reach, a junk rigged boat will at least match any other rig and downwind is where it walks away from them. downwind, a junk rigged boat will still be under full sail when the wind pipes up enough to cause the triangular crowd to douse their spinnakers.

I am certainly no expert but I have looked at junk rigs and think I can appreciate some of the benefits but also shortcomings and again I think you seriously underestimate cruisers and standard cruising boats.

A few points where I must disagree.

1. Bermuda rigs don't work downwind or must have a spinnaker.

This is contrary to my experience and certainly that of many cruisers. I have been cruising for years and never owned a spinnaker in my life and have done pretty well running downwind. Running downwind with a junk rig may offer some advantages in handling the sail but with a big jib or even a double headsail rig and a pole downwind performance of a Bermuda rig is just fine.

2. Light air performance.

A large, light weight sail on a Bermuda rig does wonders for performance. I think anyone who cannot sail in light airs and has to crank the engine just needs to use the appropriate sail.

3. A junk rig will walk away from a Bermuda rig boat downwind.

Again, spinnakers are not necessary and I don't see any reason that a Bermuda rig with the same hull could not carry just as much sail downwind in a headsail as a junk sail and match the performance.

4. Windward performance.

Again I'm not a racer but the bulk of my cruising has started from south Florida where just about everywhere is dead upwind. I have no desire to race but I also don't enjoy beating to windward in a boat that doesn't point. The ability to claw off a lee shore can also be a consideration.


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Ladies and gentlemen, I'm a cruiser, not a racer. I expect to sail downwind, more or less, as much as possible. I'm also old and not much inclined, anymore, to sort through sailbags in a locker, lugging them forward, doing the foredeck dance and lugging the sail I( just doused back to the locker.

With a junk-rigged boat, there's no need to ever go up onto the foredeck underway. There's no expensive, wet and moldy sails in the lockers either. The only sail is permanently deployed.

There are only two control lines, a halyard and a mainsheet, and both are led to the cockpit. Reefing is basically releasing the halyard until the requisite number of panels are stacked in the lazyjacks on their battens and lashing down the ends from the cockpit. Tacking requires only putting the helm down, which, incidentally, makes short-tacking up a narrow channel a pleasure. On a boat my size, winches are purely optional.

I don't want to work the boat. I want the boat to work.
I think there is no doubt that a junk rig is a very simple and easy to manage rig. It will offer significant advantages in hoisting and reefing sails over a standard rig. I would point out that with my cutter rig and self tending staysail I can short tack up a channel without touching a line.

Again I am not trying to minimize the good points of a junk rig but at the same time don't see the need to condemn the Bermuda rig as all around inferior.
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Old 28-08-2013, 09:24   #23
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Re: I'm thinking about changing "Usqy's" rig

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don't see the need to condemn the Bermuda rig as all around inferior
I don't. I've sailed bermuda rigged boats for decades and loved them.

The attraction, for me, of the junk rig is, firstly, the vastly simpler and less athletic sail management and, secondly, the vastly reduced expense of long-term maintenance.

Additional attractions, not yet mentioned, are the dramatic reduction of clutter, both on deck and below deck. with the shrouds gone, I'll have clear, uncluttered side decks. With no boom and its associated hardware and lines, my cabin top will be clear from mast to mainsheet. I'll be able to stow a substantial hard dink there. I'll have significantly more space below deck without numerous sailbags stored there.

Minor advantages include:

having more sail area up high where the wind is when in light air or when down in the trough of higher seas;

No sail chafe from spreaders and shrouds;

the panels, being vertically stitched, means any tear is restricted to the panel and between the battens;

the unstayed and flexible mast depowers the sail in gusts by spilling the wind from the top;

less heel, flatter sailing, on the wind though, given my boats shallow draft, rolling downwind may need more management

no poles required to hold the sail out;

no wind noise in the rigging and no line slapping;

jibing is stress free;

daysailing from an anchorage is a simple joy rather than a chore to be avoided
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Old 28-08-2013, 09:37   #24
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Re: I'm thinking about changing "Usqy's" rig

This all sounds like a lot to do about nothing! I don't consider my rig hard to handle and don't consider the spinnaker much of an issue to put up (even for an older fat man), so I don't understand going though a lot of effort to make it "easier" etc.

There are just so many more useful things to spend ones sailing money on than changing your boat design.
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Old 28-08-2013, 18:37   #25
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Re: I'm thinking about changing "Usqy's" rig

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This all sounds like a lot to do about nothing! I don't consider my rig hard to handle and don't consider the spinnaker much of an issue to put up (even for an older fat man), so I don't understand going though a lot of effort to make it "easier" etc.

There are just so many more useful things to spend ones sailing money on than changing your boat design.
Me thinks you and others are missing the point by a long mile. Its not just because it is easier. Super convenient reefing changes everything.

1/The reef early rule becomes, reef just in time, or when you see the squall just before it hits.

2/Reefing is so convenient you can use your sails like a throttle - release the halyard or crank it up again with the winch.

3/If weather helm becomes and issue, reef. I have a schooner, so balancing on the fly is a reality.

4/ Always sailing under correct amount of canvas, on my bermudian I didn't bother reefing until I absolutely had too.

Is it worth changing over? Depends, if your rig is tired, maybe. For bermudian: been there, done that.
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Old 28-08-2013, 18:44   #26
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Re: I'm thinking about changing "Usqy's" rig

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Me thinks you and others are missing the point by a long mile. Its not just because it is easier. Super convenient reefing changes everything.

No I think I "got" the point fully and your points were no where near enough to reinvert a boats rigging.
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Old 28-08-2013, 18:56   #27
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Re: I'm thinking about changing "Usqy's" rig

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No I think I "got" the point fully and your points were no where near enough to reinvert a boats rigging.
"reinvent" ?! LOL

(ps, not being a spelling troll, I assume you meant "reinvent".)
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Old 31-01-2014, 15:30   #28
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Re: I'm thinking about changing "Usqy's" rig

I say take Barnakiel's advice and go for it - if it fits your situation. The "situation" has to include accepting slower windward performance, making structural additions to the boat, being short of cash, and wanting to easily reef.

Join the Junk Rig Assoc in the UK, get the tech specs and advice you need, find an aluminum light pole for a mast, reinforce the hell out of the partners and the surrounding laterals, and build the sail yourself.
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Old 07-02-2014, 03:20   #29
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Re: I'm thinking about changing "Usqy's" rig

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I say take Barnakiel's advice and go for it - if it fits your situation. The "situation" has to include accepting slower windward performance,...
Some bloke in a 35'ish plastic boat (with bermudan rig) tried to race us last week, to windward in a light breeze. He tacked all over the place, it was only after 2 hours when I handed the tiller to the better half and I went below, he made ground. (Better half luffed us - she doesn't see the point of "racing").
Oh yeah, we were towing a freaking dinghy!

PS. If the OP follows instructions from the JRA on cutting foil shape into the junk sails, there will be no need to accept slower performance.
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