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Old 19-06-2013, 13:03   #1
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I'm not "vane"! I have no idea, just wondering

OK, wind vane. I notice on wind vanes, yes I have the book (at home about self steering), but can't ask the book a question.

My drawings suck, I know.


Ok, here it is. I notice that vanes seem to steer a small rudder that in turn makes the boats rudder turn. Why can't a vane have lines attached that go to blocks (or several to get a mechanical advantage) and connect directly to the tiller.

Seems like the simplest solution (in my bamboozled head), and I have not had a chance to experiment yet. Is it that it would not work due to water forces greater than air forces? I think that could be covered by using multiple block similar to hoisting someone up a mast. The mechanical advantage.

Give me your brain! ...please
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Old 19-06-2013, 13:04   #2
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Re: I'm not "vane"! I have no idea, just wondering

that first drawing on my complex cad sytem put the drawing sideways...sorry...please turn head or computer when looking at that one.
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Old 19-06-2013, 13:12   #3
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Re: I'm not "vane"! I have no idea, just wondering

Just got an idea!

Imagine that the vane shaft was directly connected to the rudder shaft. Would that work if the size of the vane part that catches the wind were large enough?

(just trying to paint a clearer picture.
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Old 19-06-2013, 13:29   #4
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pirate Re: I'm not "vane"! I have no idea, just wondering

Not having a lot of luck with this.. are you...
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Old 19-06-2013, 13:30   #5
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Re: I'm not "vane"! I have no idea, just wondering

You do realize right that the water rudder just supplies the power to the steering? Nothing else.. It's not nearly sensitive enough for any steering itself
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Old 19-06-2013, 13:31   #6
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Re: I'm not "vane"! I have no idea, just wondering

LOL.....Boatman61. Was not an intentional bump, but I got a few more ideas right after posting, so figured I would add to it.

All those miles under your belt, what are your thought?
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Old 19-06-2013, 13:32   #7
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Re: I'm not "vane"! I have no idea, just wondering

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You do realize right that the water rudder just supplies the power to the steering? Nothing else.. It's not nearly sensitive enough for any steering itself
I am with you on that. Which is why I was wondering if you could essentially replace the water rudder with blocks on the side of the cockpit going directly to the tiller so that it would not need the water rudder.
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Old 19-06-2013, 14:02   #8
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Re: I'm not "vane"! I have no idea, just wondering

I don't follow you on where you are going to get the force to move the tiller if you don't have a water rudder? Now if you were talking sheet to tiller that makes sense
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Old 19-06-2013, 14:05   #9
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Re: I'm not "vane"! I have no idea, just wondering

Water vs air. You'd have to have a wind vane much larger than practical to overcome the difference between density of air vs water. If you use blocks and tackle to overcome that advantage then you don't have enough travel by the time you get the suitable purchase power.

Check out some of the books concerning the subject from your local library. The guys that wrote the books have done a lot of experimenting and research so they know what they are doing. Lots of people have built their own vanes but the designs have come from the books already published on the subject.

The easiest rudder to put a vane on would be one that has a strait vertical trailing edge and is transom hung. I see that yours is not designed that way. So you will have more difficulty designing yours.
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Old 19-06-2013, 14:19   #10
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pirate Re: I'm not "vane"! I have no idea, just wondering

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LOL.....Boatman61. Was not an intentional bump, but I got a few more ideas right after posting, so figured I would add to it.

All those miles under your belt, what are your thought?
Never owned one.. the only one I've used to date had no vane but had a tiller pilot attached by line and blocks to steer the skinny rudder at the back... lock the wheel.. set your TP and away you go...
Am joining a boat with a Monitor system which is different I believe.. see what I think when we reach the Azores..
Funny thing... though I see a few boats with vane steering they seem rarely used.. must be scared of breaking them...
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Old 19-06-2013, 14:29   #11
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Re: I'm not "vane"! I have no idea, just wondering

Direct windpowered vanes were tried before the Servo Pendulum self steering vanes were invented. None worked well and the wind vane part was often the size of a Yawl's mizzen to provide enough force to steer the rudder.

The in water rudder on a Servo Pendulum system acts as a servo to generate the force necessary to move the rudder. The wind vane turns the rudder so it swings from side to side pulling lines tied to the tiller. The windvane supplies the heading information, the servo rudder supplies the muscle to make it happen.

Don't try and reinvent the wheel. Nick Franklin's Aries Vane, created back in the late '60s, solved most of the problems associated with self steering. Worked so well, vanes like the Monitor are near carbon copies just using different materials. Like Henry Ford, Nick didn't invent the original ideas behind wind vane self steering, just amalgamated various ideas into a vane that worked really really well.
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Old 19-06-2013, 17:02   #12
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Re: I'm not "vane"! I have no idea, just wondering

Guy:"I don't follow you on where you are going to get the force to move the tiller if you don't have a water rudder? Now if you were talking sheet to tiller that makes sense"
Boatsail: Actually, funny you mention sheet to tiller as I was thinking along that line as far as how the actual mechanics work.



Roverhi:"Direct windpowered vanes were tried before the Servo Pendulum self steering vanes were invented. None worked well and the wind vane part was often the size of a Yawl's mizzen to provide enough force to steer the rudder."
Boatsail: The "direct windpowered" vain is what I was talking about. Just did not know that it was tried before as it was not in the book I have.

SkiprJohn:"Water vs air. You'd have to have a wind vane much larger than practical to overcome the difference between density of air vs water. If you use blocks and tackle to overcome that advantage then you don't have enough travel by the time you get the suitable purchase power."
Boatsail: that thing about not having enough wind catching size or enough travel once the advantage is gained were my thoughts.

My thought was that a small mizzen/vane (the size of a large vane) along with a mechanical advantage gained through blocks could move the tiller in a direct drive type motion without the need for the trip tab on the back of the rudder.

Pretty much sheet to tiller, but with a vane instead of a mizzen.

Like the photo below, but instead of the tab controlling where the rudder goes, block and tackle to the tiller to do the controlling instead.

Idea might suck and not work, but this thread has helped me "express" what it is jumbled in my head a bit better than when it was a drawing in my brainpart.
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Old 19-06-2013, 17:03   #13
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Re: I'm not "vane"! I have no idea, just wondering

I have a tiller pilot and it would be nice to be able to have something for wind too provided it was simple enough to fabricate.
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Old 19-06-2013, 22:44   #14
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Re: I'm not "vane"! I have no idea, just wondering

Boatsail, dont torture yourself by thinking you can invent something better than an Aries,Fleming,Monitor, etc windvane. Sheet to tiller works ON SOME POINTS OF SAIL, but not all. A vane the size of a mizzen is just wasting that sail area on steering rather than driving the boat. A reliable windvane is a cruisers best friend, unless they trust electronics ( which fail all too often). There are many types of windvanes, but the proven ones are the best investment simply because they have proved to work well even when the crew is exhausted.____My 2 cents worth.____Grant.
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Old 20-06-2013, 12:46   #15
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Re: I'm not "vane"! I have no idea, just wondering

I had and have an old RVG system that uses a trim tab on an auxiliary rudder. It worked ok on most points of sail but not well when sailing toward running from a broad reach. I prefer a Monitor if you can find one cheap enough.

Your drawing is similar to one I've seen in one of my books and has me confused as to where the vane is mounted. In the drawing it is just kind of hanging out there in the air. If I could see one or see a photo of one mounted I'd be able to understand it a little better.

kind regards,
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