I need advice for a first purchase

[Sailormann]

JWS - These are great boats ... not the closest winded, but they are built like tanks and very comfortable...

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[Sailormann]

Mr. Shankmmz - here is a cutter-rigged ketch for you. Not double-ended - the only ones that I have ever seen with a double end are some of the Corbin 39's - but these are great boats.

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[SkiprJohn]

Double enders, too, have their drawbacks. A double ended 39 would have about the same interior space as a 36 of same beam and displacement. I don't know if that point was made before but just threw it out.

Ketches have by far larger mizzens than yawls. Yawl mizzen mast is set aft of the rudder post and is quite a bit shorther than what would be found on a ketch.

Interesting thread we have here.

JohnL

[stuartcnz]

There sounds like a lot of knee jerk reaction in this thread. The originator of the thread has posed a series of questions, though not given all of the information surrounding them.

First off, what size boat are you considering? This will have a large bearing on suitable rig. There is no one size fits all in this.

Secondly, what is the intended use for the boat? It now sounds like ocean cruising is in mind, so throw out any race rating induced rig judgements. The wind is the wind and the sea is the sea, and neither care about rating rules.

Thirdly, double ended or not?

My practicle experience covers sloop, cutter and ketch rigs on a combination of transom fin and full keel monohulls and Wharram catamarans ranging from 25-46ft in length.

In sailing double enders, the idea should be for symetry, giving a balanced helm at all angles of heel. Not all double enders have this and well designed transom sterned boat should have symetry throughout heeling angles. If there is not enough room in a double ender, then a bigger one would give the extra room, so I wouldn't be concerned about that arguement if you are really taken by double enders.

When it comes to single mast rigs or double mast rigs, it is going to depend on the size of the boat as to what is more suitable. In smaller boats, it would seem pointless to use a double masted rig due to ineffeciencies and added complication and expense. If a double masted rig is deemed suitable due to size, I would be inclined towards a scooner or yawl rig, with ketch being left out of the equation as less effecient. In both ketch and yawl, the mizzen doesn't offer enough drive on enough points of sail. Where a yawl comes in handy is aside from helping adjust balance, they have an excellent reputation for heaving to.

In a boat of the size range where a single masted rig is more effecient then my personal preference would be cutter of the modern variety, unless it is a very small boat. In my own experience the are easier to balance while reducing sail area and as the head sails are of a smaller size, less sophisticated and therefore less expensive equipment is needed to manage them. However if the boat is only around 25ft then I would go with a sloop, as every thing is small enough to manage easily and will probably be the most effeceint rig for it.

[eskfreedom]

Jeff could you please reply to my post "center or aft" I would like to hear your Knowlagelable opinion on this mater thanks.

[David_Old_Jersey]

My experiance is limited to only one "pointy ended" boat and my father's at that. But covered many miles in her, in all sorts of weather - and never had any worries about her seaworthiness.

I am not a yacht designer (or very techical ), so I dunno how much of the following was due to her stern or the rest of her.............but she never had any problems lifting her stern over following seas - albeit that the seas were well split by the time she lifted......in my book I saw this as a good thing as we found this helped steering from not fighting the stern trying to broach. I don't recall ever really starting to surf down the waves or being excessively driven by the following sea. My understanding is that the bouyancy at the stern of the boat is not just generated by the extra size created by a flat transom..............or just it's shape.

Of course probably the most we were ever out in was probably a 7 or 8 and nothing mid ocean.

Why don't I have a canoe stern boat? Nothing out their I saw in the size I wanted with everything else I was after..........for the money I had. Otherwise I probably would have got one.

To my (non-technical) eyes, many classic traditional boat shapes (Contessa's etc) do in many respects have canoe sterns and the same sort of hull lines, albeit with the canoe chopped off flat, so that despite having a flat transom they do "split" the following seas pretty much the same way as double ender. I would personally be more reluctant to choose a more modern vessel with a flat stern 1/4 the width of her length..........but I appreciate that this could well be just cos of my lack of experiance in these sort of boats.

A Canoe sterned Ketch rigged cutter would (IMO) have one BIG advantage............she would be one good looking boat

I did some Googling and although not a cutter or a ketch, this had me drooling............



Sailboat - Frances 26 by Morris Yachts and Victoria Yachts designed by Chuck Paine

[SkiprJohn]

I don't disagree with what stuartcnz says:

"When it comes to single mast rigs or double mast rigs, it is going to depend on the size of the boat as to what is more suitable. In smaller boats, it would seem pointless to use a double masted rig due to ineffeciencies and added complication and expense. If a double masted rig is deemed suitable due to size, I would be inclined towards a scooner or yawl rig, with ketch being left out of the equation as less effecient. In both ketch and yawl, the mizzen doesn't offer enough drive on enough points of sail. Where a yawl comes in handy is aside from helping adjust balance, they have an excellent reputation for heaving to."

However, I want to make these points.

I just think it is a matter of preference what you choose to sail. There are reasons for all rigs. Stuart would choose a schooner and I would not but definitely would choose a yawl because a yawl will go to weather much more efficiently. I sailed quite a bit on a Herreshoff Marco Polo, 55' schooner. It had a canoe stern, big engine in the center of the hull and even had a squaresail. My 35 foot ketch would outsail and outpoint her to weather every time we decided to compete. However, sailing off the wind was a different story. If you look at the photo in my profile you'll see the result of an informal race we had from the mouth of Pearl Harbor to Waikiki. The boat on which the photo was taken was an Offshore 41 Yawl which always spanked us on all points of sail. The Offshore was very fast off wind as well because she flew a mizzen staysail which a cutter or sloop cannot do. My ketch flew a mizzen staysail too but the Offshore had me whipped because of waterline. 32 vs 27.

For boats 32 LOD and under I would not do a canoe stern or double masted because you lose a lot of interior room with the canoe stern and you add a lot of complexity to your rigging with Yawl or Ketch. Over 32 it is debatable and choose depending on what you like.

JohnL

[stuartcnz]

Skipr John, you may have mis read a bit of what I wrote, or I did not write exactly what I meant when it comes to scooners and yawls. Firstly I have no first hand experience with either of them, so my knowledge of them is from what I have read and people I have spoken with.
My understanding of scooners is there is a high degree of understanding of that particular rig needed to make it work properly, but it does work well if you can get that understanding. But if you don't have that specialized knowledge they can even be some what less than average.

What you say about yawls, corresponds with what I have read and heard.

Personally I am unlikely to ever have a boat big enough that either requires or is suitable for more than one mast. But if I did, I would probably go with the yawl because they just look so nice.

[Sailormann]

I had a gaff-rigged Tancook schooner for some years on the East Coast. The rig is a lot of work and a lot of money to keep up. Undeniably beautiful, but unless you want to race with other schooners, or you have a very large boat, they are not practical craft. I would certainly never get one again, as much I love the one I had.

Up to about 35 feet or so, I think a cutter is the best offshore rig - a true cutter with an aft-set mast and larger foretriangle, as opposed to a double-headsail sloop. Past that point, the mainsail starts to get a bit large for easy sheeting by a single person, hence a ketch becomes a logical option, unless you want to fit electric winches, etc.

[teadaemon]

An interesting discussion, with quite a few points worthy of comment.

Double-enders

Yes they look pretty, but compared to a transom-sterned boat of equal length they have reduced buoyancy aft and less useful space in the hull. Originally canoe sterns were used on lifeboats and pilot boats because they're much less likely to suffer damage when working very close to large ships, if that's not a major consideration then their only advantage is really aesthetics.

Ketch vs. Yawl

I know of at least one naval architect (Phil Bolger) who would argue that the difference is one of function, rather than quibbling over whether the mast is in front of or behind the rudder post. In his definition a ketch uses the mizzen primarily to move the boat, whereas a yawl just uses the mizzen to balance the rest of the rig. I prefer this definition because it's based on function rather than an arbitary distinction based on other unrelated features of the design (which holds true most of the time under this definition, but not always).

Efficiency of various sail plans

Here's a table comparing the efficiency of various different rigs (not sure of exactly how that's been measured, but it's the best I could find), taken from Understanding Boat Design (4th Ed) by Ted Brewer:

Bermudan Sloop & Cutter 100%
Bermudan Yawl 96%
Bermudan Schooner & Gaff Sloop 92%
Bermudan Ketch & Gaff Yawl 88%
Gaff Schooner 85%
Gaff Ketch 82%

This table only takes rig into account, and assumes that the rigs are of equal area. In practice I'd suggest that unless you intend to race then you should get the rig that you like best, as they all get you there in the end. The one proviso to this is that I would be very uncomfortable sailing on any boat where the sails were too large for me to handle alone without electric winches.

[Heron]

I am in agreement with two masts on small boats. It doesn't make much sence and adds complexity. As the boat gets larger, the advantage of two mast is the distribution of sail power and therefor "easier" to manage the sails with a limited crew as each sail would be smaller in size then a single main and huge genoa.

I sail a double ender cutter. I agree that my double ender lacks in storage space over a square transom but she looks beautiful on her mooring or sailing under full canvas in a 25 knot wind. I believe the look of the vessel is as important to the owner as her storage capacity or sometimes performance. It really doesn't make sense to have a boat at all, except for the thrill of sailing and the emotional attraction of the vessel.

Your goal was to sleep 4 persons. Saying that, you could get by with a older Pacific Seacraft 28 or 31. Or any square transom vessel under 30 feet. If sailing offshore, you just want to be sure the boat is built for that in mind.

My 32 footer is a cutter. I love it. It provides me with many options for all wind conditions. Her only drawback over the bermuda rig is tacking, as the gib needs to come through the second forestay. When I don't need the staysail, I usually disconnect the second forestay with a quick release mechanism.

All boats have tradeoffs. Choosing a boat is more about what is important to you and then find the best one available. That picture shown above of the 26 foot double ender is sure pretty!

HERON

[SkiprJohn]

Aloha Tea and Stuart,

Please don't take my comments and opinions as criticism. I just thought that Stuart said he would choose a schooner or yawl rig and my point is that I'd definitel choose a yawl. Schooners are pretty. I mentioned "to weather" performance and my experience with all boats I've sailed. I would never disagree with Mr. Brewer who I think is a great designer but will state my preference for a "to weather" performer because I know that when I sail downwind for a long distance I'll need to come back upwind otherwise I'd consider having a square rigger.
I'm not certain whether Mr. Brewer was stating efficiency in performance or efficiency in filling up the rig with sail area.

"Here's a table comparing the efficiency of various different rigs (not sure of exactly how that's been measured, but it's the best I could find), taken from Understanding Boat Design (4th Ed) by Ted Brewer:

Bermudan Sloop & Cutter 100%
Bermudan Yawl 96%
Bermudan Schooner & Gaff Sloop 92%
Bermudan Ketch & Gaff Yawl 88%
Gaff Schooner 85%
Gaff Ketch 82%"

My experience is that a yawl beats a schooner on all points of sail. Just my experience and I will stick with what I experience to form my opinions.

My real life current boat is a cutter for simplicity. A for real cutter. It makes sense to me and is a good performer to weather.

Kind Regards,

JohnL

[GordMay]

In the 1960s, the Royal Ocean Racing Club of Great Britain developed a handicap rule that estimated the efficiency of the various rigs:
Rig ~ Handicap (%)
Bermudan sloop or cutter ~ 100
Bermudan yawl ~ 96
Bermudan schooner and gaff sloop ~ 92
Bermudan ketch and gaff yawl ~ 88
Gaff schooner ~ 85
Gaff ketch ~ 81

“... In effect, the rule said that a gaff ketch rig has only 81 percent of the efficiency of a Bermudan sloop or cutter of the same sail area, but that was with other things being equal. That's not always the case, and it is obvious that a gaff ketch with a well-designed hull and a slick bottom can sail circles around a poorly designed Bermudan sloop with ratty sails and a rough bottom. Also, the cruising sailor must consider that efficiency is not necessarily handiness or safety.
Safety in cruising is having sufficient windward ability to claw off a lee shore in a gale, but only if the rig can be handled by a short-handed crew. If a sloop's sails are too large for the crew to change or reef under storm conditions, then you have no safety and would be better off with a divided rig with its smaller sails and greater ease of handling ...”

Excerpted from:

The fore-and-aft rig
While economics favor the sloop, other rigs have much to offer
by Ted Brewer (“Good Old Boat” magazine Volume 4, Number 2, March/April 2001)

Article online at: Good Old Boat: The fore-and-aft rig by Ted Brewer

[teadaemon]

Originally Posted by GordMay

In the 1960s, the Royal Ocean Racing Club of Great Britain developed a handicap rule that estimated the efficiency of the various rigs:

[...]

Article online at: Good Old Boat: The fore-and-aft rig by Ted Brewer

Thanks, it's nice to know where those figures came from. A very informative article too, similar to the section on rigs in his book, but going in to more depth.

[teadaemon]

Originally Posted by SkiprJohn

Please don't take my comments and opinions as criticism. I just thought that Stuart said he would choose a schooner or yawl rig and my point is that I'd definitel choose a yawl. Schooners are pretty. I mentioned "to weather" performance and my experience with all boats I've sailed. I would never disagree with Mr. Brewer who I think is a great designer but will state my preference for a "to weather" performer because I know that when I sail downwind for a long distance I'll need to come back upwind otherwise I'd consider having a square rigger.
I'm not certain whether Mr. Brewer was stating efficiency in performance or efficiency in filling up the rig with sail area.

My experience is that a yawl beats a schooner on all points of sail. Just my experience and I will stick with what I experience to form my opinions.

My real life current boat is a cutter for simplicity. A for real cutter. It makes sense to me and is a good performer to weather.

Well your experience would appear to be borne out by the figures previously quoted, unless it's the placement of a Bermudan schooner above a gaff yawl that concerns you. I know schooners aren't as weatherly as other rigs, but I'm unconvinced that that's such a serious problem when we're basically talking about a few degrees. They'll still sail to windward, albeit with more tacks.

I don't yet have experience of sailing anything with more than one mast, but if I were blue water cruising I'd want to be doing so in a ketch, yawl or schooner, no matter how small a boat I were sailing. Dividing the sailplan between two (or more) masts also divides the forces, so either masts and rigging can be lighter, or (more realistically for a cruising boat) they can be beefed up and further over-engineered (along with the rest of the boat to match of course). A second mast also provides more room for radio aerials and mounting all of the other stuff that seems to want to work best high up (radar, windvane, wind generator, etc), the ability to rig a staysail, and more options for fashioning a jury-rig should it ever become necessary.