Hylas 46 vs Tartan 4400

[jhiller]

Having very recently visited Tartan and examined their new products and met with Steve Malbasa the new owner I would feel very comfortable buying a new Tartan today. Their work is superb and the advantages of the infused epoxy hull are so great that it alone is an important factor.
I think the days of questionable warranty and customer service are gone. Tartan is now a well funded company with a goal of building boats the equal of the best that Maine produces. They are a semi-custom builder now and any changes to layout can easily be accomodated

[Habana Vieja]

Thank You Jhiller.
I am sure many Tartan owners, especially those who experienced what seemed to be a somewhat characteristic sour experience wtih the factory, will welcome the news as do I. You raise an interesting question. Does your mail suggest that Sabre is Tartan's benchmark in terms of production quality AND that the flexibility Hylas offers is now part of their agenda? Certainly, the hull component now offered by Tartan extends beyond those two formidable competitors. On the other hand, they will have to prove themselves over time to catch up with Sabre's unyielding support of
product owners and though the seaworthiness of the Tartan's are certainly established as are their comfort for cruising couples, in the former category Hylas seems to have a slight edge and in the later, it seems to be a draw depending on
personal preferences. Maybe it does drift down to a decision between center or
aft cockpits? Whatever, 'tis an interesting discussion. Thanks. HV

[jhiller]

I think that you reach a certain level of quality where choice is properly a mere preference not a quality compromise. Sabre, Morris, Tartan,Valiant, Oyster, Swan, Contest, Rustler and many others are at that level. I only omit Hylas because I have not inspected one.

[Tahoe John]

In discussion about the "tenderness" of the Hylas 46 and the lack of tankage on the Tartan 4400, here is an observation.

According to what I can see on sailboatdata.com, the Hylas has 188 of water, and 88 of fuel, and with a displacement of 27,777 only 5,600 is ballast. *The Tartan has 200 gal of water, and 80 of fuel, with a displacement of 24,000 and 9,000 of it being ballast. *These numbers show that tankage between the 2 boats is very close, and that the cg of a Tartan is much lower. *Compounding this is the weight aloft is the in mast furling mainsail on the Hylas. *The Tartan designers have paid great attention to weight and the fact that Tartans are now delivered with Carbon Fiber mast as standard equipment further demonstrates this attention to weight.

Now with that said, I own the Tartan 4400 that Habana Vieja is interested in purchasing, so my opinion is biased, but I have chartered the Hylas 46 model on 3 occasions for a week long BVI trip, and I agree, a nice boat, but not the same sailing experience as the Tartan line. I present this information for others to comment on, and I know of a couple of yacht designers who frequent this site, so hopefully they will chin in.

[Habana Vieja]

Thank you Jhiller . Happy you accepted the lead and joined us TJ. Jhiller does strike a Bulls Eye in his recent comment ( al least for me). There is no doubt that
after 2000 and backed by its new products emerging from Queen Long Marine, Hylas
makes the list. Anyone with a boat on Jhiller's short list has a great deal to be happy about...all of them testify to some of the more honorable elements of human natrue.

Though both the Tartan and the Hylas can be rightly called semi custom boats, Hylas appears to leave more room for variation -explaining some of the discrepancies in data found above. For example. it's quoted that the fuel capacity of the two boats is about equal.
Well, this is true in some instances but in others it is not. For example, we just looked at a Hylas that had 4 separate diesel tanks and the total in capacity was 169 gallons.
A drawback however, was that three of them had been empty for 6 months so it was difficult to know what may or may not be waiting to foul the fuel. Some might wave the red flag and indicate 169 gallons of fuel is in danger of falling into power boat territory. On some Hylas, the water capacity is lower than Tartan's 200 gallon
mark but these Hylas boats also have water-makers. ( Albeit, we have spoken with some Hylas owners who say the water-makers are more of a headache than a blessing. They are rarely used, the ongoing ritual of "pickling" them for 6 months then using them for a couple of weeks is hard to get away from.)

Both the Hylas and the Tartan are magnificent vessels. It has been said that Tartan does more to keep US workers on the job( like Sabre) but I do not have the data to back this up. However, one feature of the Hylas we are not yet over is the Center Cockpit design. Eventhough the consequences play out big time in a beautiful aft stateroom and a linear galley, and given the center cockpit is great for sitting at anchor or resting at berth in a marina, when the wind whips up and the swells do just that,
seems hard to get away from the need to keep the big dodger, bimini with butler
and sides always fully rigged. On the other hand, the more conventional aft cockpit of the Tartan ( perhaps because it is more like what we are used to) seems desirable from standpoints of security and visibility Also, on many of the Hylas we have seen Lexan is not used for dodger windows and the less durable vinyl clouds - obscuring visibility.

In any event, thanks again TJ for joining the conversation and to all others who have contributed. We shall have to see what the Tartan sails like soon.

Best Wishes,
HV

[Gudgeon]

Tartan will make many changes for an owner when building. I added a fuel tank to increase capacity to approx 120 gallons. We did discuss making the one of the water tanks into a fuel tank. I am now keeping this tank empty until we need it.
The newer water makes do not require "pickling", mine has a fresh water flush that operates aprrox every 5 days. I am just now going to replace my membrane after 5 1/2 years.
I like the set up of the galley on the 4400 as you can set you self in one position and reach the sink stove and fridge with vey little movement.

[Habana Vieja]

Thanks Gudgeon.
The Hylas we are looking at are 2001 and 2002. The Tartan is 2003. One thing is clear: Tartan owners, in spite of factory insensitivity problems before the change in ownership, are very dedicated. Also, all used Tartans I have seen exhibit a degree of owner maintenance that is beyond the ordinary.
HV

[ippocampus]

We have had a new tartan 4100 great great boat but not blue water unless you add tankage and a few other things-I loved that boat , we now graduated to a blue water vessel and
Have new Hylas 56 now ... It has everything and is fast
Can't really compare the two
Tartan is probably best in its class
Hylas a different class

[ippocampus]

Oh and by the way tankage is not for water you should install a wAtermaker for that which works wonders and will provide you with better water than what you can find (or not find) in exotic places
You need fuel to make water and you need it on long passages....

[jack630]

Tahoe John in the discussion about the "tenderness" of the Hylas 46 and the lack of tankage on the Tartan 4400, observed :

"According to what I can see on sailboatdata.com, the Hylas has 188 of water, and 88 of fuel, and with a displacement of 27,777 only 5,600 is ballast".

I appreciate this discussion. We, too, are considering the Hylas but also have considered the Tartan. I went to SailboatData.com and realized that the information stated in this thread is incorrect. The displacement of the Hylas is 27,777 lbs with 5,600 kg ballast. With the correct unit, pounds, the ballast is 12346 lbs, or a Bal/Disp of 44.44%. The Tartan 4400 is 24000 lbs displacement and 9000 lbs ballast for a 37.5% Bal/Disp.

My wife and I have assessed many boats and have narrowed it to the Hylas, Tartan, Passport, Gulfstar, and the Caliber. Since we have never sailed a center cockpit, any other opinions on that would be appreciated. Since we plan to live on our next boat, the aft berth is appealing, but the center cockpit is a question. I find the discussion on the sleeping quarters to be of interest as well.

We are now looking for our "retirement boat." Since we know we will be purchasing a used boat when we do buy one, we must get it far enough in advance to do the required work. So our search is in full swing. We have been working on our current boat, a 1975 38 foot C&C, since we purchased it 4 years ago. The boat, that has never seen salt water, is now in great shape, so we are really conflicted about eventually selling her, but know that it is not a boat we could live on long term.

Again, thanks for an interesting thread.

[Habana Vieja]

just opened your post ( 10/14) and will comment in CAPS below.][/U]



Tahoe John in the discussion about the "tenderness" of the Hylas 46 and the lack of tankage on the Tartan 4400, observed :

"According to what I can see on sailboatdata.com, the Hylas has 188 of water, and 88 of fuel, and with a displacement of 27,777 only 5,600 is
ballast".

DID NOT SEE IN YOUR MAIL WHERE YOU CITED THE YEAR HYLAS 46 YOU WERE LOOKING FOR/AT. THE SPECS, OF COURSE, VARY DEPENDING ON WHEN BUILT. WE BOUGHT A 1999 HYALS 46. THERE ARE 2 FUEL TANKS
TOTALING A 100 GALLON CAPACITY AND WATER COMES IN AT 180 GALLONS
SPREAD OVER 3 TANKS. SOME NEWER HYLAS TAKE MORE FUEL AND LESS WATER - PROBABLY DUE TO WHETHER OR NOT THERE IS A WATERMAKER INSTALLED. BURNING FUEL AT A RATE OF ONE GALLON PER HOUR, WE'VE GOT ENOUGH TO MOTOR A BIT MORE THAN FOUR FULL DAYS. IN OTHER WORDS, WE CAN PROBABLY MOTOR
ABOUT 500 MILES WHICH IS SOMETHING OF A BENCHMARK FOR SOME DELIVERY SKIPPERS. WATER IS NEVER A PROBLEM AS WE HARBOR HOP
AND PLAN ON PURCHASING A REFITTED MILITARY SURPLUS POROTABLE WATERMAKER IN CASE WE RUN INTO A PROBLEM ON A LONG PASSAGE.
WOULDN'T WANT THE ADDED COMPLEXITIES OF A WATERMAKER.


I appreciate this discussion. We, too, are considering the Hylas but also have considered the Tartan. I went to SailboatData.com and realized that the information stated in this thread is incorrect. The displacement of the Hylas is 27,777 lbs with 5,600 kg ballast. With the correct unit, pounds, the ballast is 12346 lbs, or a Bal/Disp of 44.44%. The Tartan 4400 is 24000 lbs displacement and 9000 lbs ballast for a 37.5% Bal/Disp.

WE HAVE FOUND THE HYLAS TO BE A VERY WELL BALANCED SAILING VESSEL - THOUGH WE HAVE NOT HAD IT LONG AND OUR SAILING HAS BEEN LIMITED
TO EASTERN FLORIDA - AS THE WIND BUILDS SHE PUTS HER NOSE DOWN
AND SLIDES INTO A MANTRA OF SORTS. SHE LOVES A BEAM REACH BUT WHAT BOAT DOESN"T? EQUALLY IMPORTANT, AS A COUPLE MY WIFE AND I ARE ABLE TO HANDLE HER UNDER SAIL (OR POWER FOR THAT MATTER)
OVE THE NEXT 8 MONTHS, WE WILL SEEK TO SAIL HER UNDER AS MANY CONDITIONS AS POSSIBLE - PREPARING FOR A TRIP TO TRINIDAD AND BEYOND ( HAWAII VIA FIJI)

My wife and I have assessed many boats and have narrowed it to the Hylas, Tartan, Passport, Gulfstar, and the Caliber. Since we have never sailed a center cockpit, any other opinions on that would be appreciated. Since we plan to live on our next boat, the aft berth is appealing, but the center cockpit is a question. I find the discussion on the sleeping quarters to be of interest as well.

THE INTERIOR OF THE HYLAS TRULY DOES BORDER ON LUXURIOUS.
WE FIND THE AFT OWNER'S CABIN MORE THAN COMFORTABLE AND THE LACK OF LEE CLOTHS/BOARDS HAS NOT BEEN A PROBLEM YET. HOWEVER, SINCE MOST OF OUR TIME AT SEA WILL BE AS A COUPLE, DOWN TIME WHILE TRADING OFF WATCHES WILL PROBABLY BE SPENT SOMEWHERE OTHER THAN THE AFT CABIN.

INITIALLY, WE TOO HAD QUESTIONS ABOUT THE CENTER COCKPIT BUT MOST RESERVATIONS HAVE PROVEN TO BE UNFOUNDED. ON THE POSITIVE SIDE,
USING AN ADJUSTABLE BIMINI , TIME AT HARBOR IS MAXIMIZED BY HAVING A BETTER VIEW OF SURROUNDINGS THAN AN AFT COCKPIT PROVIDES. ALSO, WE REALLY HAVE WARMED UP TO THE OPTION OF HAVING A "BACK YARD" ON DECK THAT WE CAN WALK OUT TO - MAKING IT A SNAP TO WORK WITH THE BOAT WHEN COMING INTO A TIGHT BERTH.

WITH A CENTER COCKPIT RAISED AS IS THE HYLAS', THERE IS THE FEELING OF SITTING ON SOMETHING RATHER THAN SITTING DOWN IN SOMETHING. WE HAVE FOUND - TO OUR SURPRISE- THAT WE FAR PREFER THE FORMER.
AS FOR THE "SOAKING" SOME SAY THE CENTER COCKPIT WILL PROVIDE IN
ROUGH WEATHER, WE SHALL SEE - HOPING THAT THE BIMINI WITH
A PROPER BUTLER WILL KEEP US ACCEPTABLY DRY. IF NOT, THERE ARE OPTIONS.


We are now looking for our "retirement boat." Since we know we will be purchasing a used boat when we do buy one, we must get it far enough in advance to do the required work. So our search is in full swing. We have been working on our current boat, a 1975 38 foot C&C, since we purchased it 4 years ago. The boat, that has never seen salt water, is now in great shape, so we are really conflicted about eventually selling her, but know that it is not a boat we could live on long term.

WE LOOKED LONG AND HARD FOR OUR HYLAS "KAIAN". IN THE PROCESS, WE CAME ACROSS A FABULOUS TARTAN 4400 THAT HAD BEEN VERY WELL CARED FOR BY AN EXACTING OWNER AND WAS EVERYTHING WE EXPECTED ONE OF THESE BOATS TO BE. PARTICULARLY, WE LIKED THE MORE CONVENTIONAL MAINSAIL RIG ON THE TARTAN - USING A STANDARD HALYARD AND AN ELECTRIC WINCH RATHER THAN A MAST FURLING ELECTRIC MAIN AS IS THE CASE ON OUR HYLAS. IN THE LONG RUN, WE COULD NOT AGREE ON A PRICE FOR THE TARTAN AND WENT FOR THE HYLAS. WE ARE HAPPY WE DID. HOWEVER, THE TWO BOATS ARE VERY DIFFERENT AND THE TARTAN FANS WILL BE DIFFERENT THAN HYLAS FANS. BOTH BOATS SEEM TO BE BUILT FOR A COUPLE TO SAIL AROUND THE WORLD COMFORTABLY. IN OUR CASE, PERHAPS BECAUSE WE HAVE A SABRE 34 ON THE WEST COAST THAT WE COULD NOT BRING OURSELVES TO GIVE UP. IN CERTAIN WAYS, THE TARTAN REMINDED US OF THE SABRE. IN THE HYLAS, WE OPTED FOR SOMETHING DIFFERENT. SEARCHING FOR THE RIGHT BOAT, WE LOOKED AT MANY, MANY DESIGNS/BRANDS. FOR US, THESE TWO ( HYLAS / TARTAN) WERE THE STRONGEST CONTENDERS THOUGH THEY ARE NOT INEXPENSIVE. AS A FOOTNOTE, WE ALSO LOOKED AT A HYLAS 49 AND LIKED THE 46 MORE THAN THE 49. ONE OPTION WE THOUGHT WE WOULD PASS ON BUT ULTIMATELY DECIDED TO HAVE INSTALLED DURING A MODES REFIT WAS A BOW THRUSTER. MANY HYLAS COME WITH THEM PRE INSTALLED. OUR S DID NOT.
OUR HYLAS DRAWS 7 FEET AND THE IDEA OF TIP TOEING THROUGH CARIBBEAN REEFS WITHOUT THE ADDITIONAL SUPPORT OF A THRUSTER
ALARMED US A BIT - PLUS, THE DEVICE MAKES DOCKING REQUIRE MUCH
LESS MUSCLE AND ACROBATICS FROM MY WIFE.

WE REALLY LOVE "KAIAN" AND OUR PLANS ARE VERY MUCH PARALLEL TO YOURS. WHATEVER YOU DECIDE: CONGRATULATIONS. TO HAVE COME AS FAR AS YOU HAVE REQUIRES A LOT OF STAMINA AND RESOLVE....ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES TO CLEARING OUT YOUR GARAGE AND EXPLAINING TO OTHERS WHAT YOUR PLANS ARE AND WHY YOU HAVE MADE THEM.
BEST WISHES,
HABANA VIEJA
KAIAN
HYLAS 46
Again, thanks for an interesting thread.

[jack630]

Habana Vieja,

I enjoyed your reply. There are many things to keep in mind as one is reviewing boats. We are quite partial to the Hylas and your comments are very helpful. We also like the "real estate" behind the center cockpit, which can be quite useful once the real cruising days are upon us.

We have heard mixed reviews on the center cockpits, so would like to charter a boat with one just to see what we think, but there seem to be relatively few available from the few chartering companies we have talked with.

Best of luck in your adventures. I wish we were to that point, but we not. We are "easing" folks into the "we will sell most everything to live on a sailboat"' discussion. It is rather like the reception we got from our parents (years ago) when I told them, with our two tiny kids by our sides, that I was quitting my job to go back to school for serveral years. Can you say, "lead balloon"? This will be way more fun that going to grad school!!

Regards,
Jack630

[Cheechako]

Hylas, Tartan, Passport, Gulfstar, and the Caliber

Well.... I've only owned a Passport of your list, but have sailed with owners of the Hylas and Gulfstar. Have thoroughly inspected a Caliber 40 for some friends. I would rate the Hylas and Passport at the top for sure, a good jump above the others.. Probably like this:
1.Hylas
2.Passport
3.?
4.?
5. Caliber
6. Gulfstar
I know nothing about the Tartan. Their following from the old days is strong, but completely different ownership and boats now. In the end it's what get's your juices flowing I guess. The Hylas is definitely the best looking center cockpit... IMHO

[Carlisle Spirit]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

Hylas, Tartan, Passport, Gulfstar, and the Caliber

Well.... I've only owned a Passport of your list, but have sailed with owners of the Hylas and Gulfstar. Have thoroughly inspected a Caliber 40 for some friends. I would rate the Hylas and Passport at the top for sure, a good jump above the others.. Probably like this:
1.Hylas
2.Passport
3.?
4.?
5. Caliber
6. Gulfstar
I know nothing about the Tartan. Their following from the old days is strong, but completely different ownership and boats now. In the end it's what get's your juices flowing I guess. The Hylas is definitely the best looking center cockpit... IMHO

You would have to include Tayana up near the top of that list as well. The Tayana 48 CC is probably a better built boat than the new Passports which are made in Xiamen, China

The companies which make Hylas and Tayana have cross share ownership and Directors Both are made in Taiwan