Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Mark, this is not meant as bashing, but wouldn't this mean that the backing plate bears on core material, not glass? I would have thought the best practice would be to replace core with something solid in the subject area.

Or do I have the picture upside down? I'm not sure I understand your description!

Jim

All deck hardware on our boat has glassed in backing plates. The method for installing them seems to depend on the type of loads. For blocks and other things that have tension or compression loads, the backing plates are put in in place of coring in those areas. For the cleats, which are mostly in shear, I think it was done like I described.

But now you have me wondering about that. I can look tomorrow and clarify.

Either way, the area is not thinner where the backing plates are.

Mark

[CarinaPDX]

Apologies for thread drift - writing a long post has the disadvantage of re-entering the conversation after it moved on...

Saying that this accident was not a result of cleat (mounting) failure is wrong. Had the cleat held there is no reason to believe that the boat would have been lost. Of course it might have been - pure conjecture. But the cleat failure was the first in a series of events that caused the boat to hit another boat and become holed. Without the cleat failure this would not have happened - barring another failure such as the mooring line.

I will repeat: the ultimate failure was to not move the boat in response to a weather forecast of gale force winds coming directly into the harbor over a 25 mile fetch. It is a mistake many of us have made at one time or another (it is the one that cost Moitessier his Joshua at Cabo San Lucas, and nearly my Carina in the same place). Understandable on many levels, but a mistake nonetheless and one we should all learn from.

Greg

[downunder]

I guess the point you are making well Mark is that high stress points such as bow cleats and the hull structures adjacent supporting them need to be proberly engineered and this is sometimes not well done on many vessels.

I have friends with a Lagoon 440 and FP Salina 48 that have ripped out cleats med mooring in a storm.

[Jon Eisberg]

A couple of pics of the bow cleat on the 460... I'll cut the Hunter owners some slack, and allow that this does not likely represent how docklines are typically fixed to their cleats...

:-))








Two things catch my eye...

Probably due to the conversion of much of the foredeck into a boxtop for the anchor locker, those cleats are mounted considerably further aft than is 'normal'... Depending on how the boat might have been swinging, if the forces of wind and wave became more broadside, the leverage on those cleats might only have been increased than if they had been located closer to the stem...

Second, hard to tell for certain, but the surface upon which the cleat is mounted does not necessarily appear to be integral with the structure of the deck itself. Rather, it seems it might be an arrangement closer to that of the wrecked Passage 420 pictured earlier, where the cleat is perched atop a hollow, bulbous 'toerail', for want of a better description... But being that it's mounted on a flat cutout in that rail, one could only assume there's a solid structure underneath... However, there certainly isn't much room for a backing plate of the size that might be very effective in distributing the load to much of an extent to the surrounding deck itself...

Good news is, at least it's a 4 hole cleat... :-)

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by RTB

Me too, since I called the broken cleat BS.

I also noticed in Maine's post - "Only one cleat was in use at the time and it took all the load. It could have just as easily been the mooring pendant that failed, as happens most often."

For anyone else picking up a mooring when expecting storm conditions, one line attached to a bow cleat is not the proper setup. I NEVER attach one line to the pendant. Anyone that has moored in Boot Key has seen their nice, big, display, showing the proper way to adjust your lines. Recommended Mooring Tie Up for Storms

Maybe it would have saved the Hunter in this thread, or maybe not. But there is a right way and a wrong way to do some things. I hope this helps someone else in the future, since there are probably a few future cruisers reading this, that have never picked up a mooring.

Ralph

That's an interesting mooring system, Ralph. But a question: are the two 'main" lines that appear to be spliced to the pendant eye part of the supplied rig? If so, I guess that all you are asked to add is the smaller line shown in between the "main" ones.

We don't use moorings often, but so far, all the ones that I've picked up have only the pendant (around here always biggish polypropylene three strand) with a large spliced eye. What you have posted is surely a better system.

Jim

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg

A couple of pics of the bow cleat on the 460...

Is this the model of boat that sunk? Someone said it was a newer model Hunter, but the Simpson-Lawrence Horizon 1500 windlass in your picture hasn't been made since ~1998.

If it is the same model, then you have a point.

If it isn't the same model, then I don't see the connection, and don't agree that you can paint with such broad strokes unless you can show that the construction and build are very similar.

Mark

[colemj]

Originally Posted by downunder

I guess the point you are making well Mark is that high stress points such as bow cleats and the hull structures adjacent supporting them need to be proberly engineered and this is sometimes not well done on many vessels.

I have friends with a Lagoon 440 and FP Salina 48 that have ripped out cleats med mooring in a storm.

On another thread here somewhere, I posted pictures of broken cleats and cleats ripped out of decks from pretty much all types of boats out there. Cleats that were considered by some of the experts here as unbreakable, off of boats considered impossible.

At some point, something cries "uncle".

That was my point.

Mark

[Exile]

Originally Posted by colemj

On another thread here somewhere, I posted pictures of broken cleats and cleats ripped out of decks from pretty much all types of boats out there. Cleats that were considered by some of the experts here as unbreakable, off of boats considered impossible.

At some point, something cries "uncle".

That was my point.

Mark

It's a good point. Maine Sail has a helpful article on this on his "How-To" website and the forces can be incredible. But to me that only makes it an imperative to explore whether build practices are deficient and/or can be improved, just like the excellent posts we've had on improving basic seamanship. No need for anyone to interpret the inquiry as some sort of "bash."

[SailAllDay]

I'm a prospective Hunter 44DS buyer, looks like the Kevlar reinforcement didn't help much for Susie Q. Could this just be a gimmick?

"Hunter’s structural grid and interior bulkhead design are bonded into place,
complemented by Kevlar-reinforced hulls, for top-notch structural
strength and integrity."

[Exile]

Originally Posted by SailAllDay

I'm a prospective Hunter 44DS buyer, looks like the Kevlar reinforcement didn't help much for Susie Q. Could this just be a gimmick?

"Hunter’s structural grid and interior bulkhead design are bonded into place,
complemented by Kevlar-reinforced hulls, for top-notch structural
strength and integrity."

Try not to jump the guy/gal. First post & all, and he/she obviously is an admirer.

One of many answers I'm sure is that we don't know if this particular Hunter had Kevlar reinforcing. I thought that was a more recent feature but could be wrong.

[ryon]

Originally Posted by RTB

Me too, since I called the broken cleat BS.

I also noticed in Maine's post - "Only one cleat was in use at the time and it took all the load. It could have just as easily been the mooring pendant that failed, as happens most often."

For anyone else picking up a mooring when expecting storm conditions, one line attached to a bow cleat is not the proper setup. I NEVER attach one line to the pendant. Anyone that has moored in Boot Key has seen their nice, big, display, showing the proper way to adjust your lines. Recommended Mooring Tie Up for Storms

Maybe it would have saved the Hunter in this thread, or maybe not. But there is a right way and a wrong way to do some things. I hope this helps someone else in the future, since there are probably a few future cruisers reading this, that have never picked up a mooring.

Ralph

Sorry to add even more OT controversy to this poor thread, but three out of the four lines pictured are not fairly led. Also, this arrangement does not divide the load. On anything other than a straight pull, the full load will be upon either one cleat or the other.

Marginal tucks on the big eye splice, and no serving over. I'd probably question the cleat hitches too, if I could see them a little better. Hope I'm not catching something here.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by colemj

All deck hardware on our boat has glassed in backing plates. The method for installing them seems to depend on the type of loads. For blocks and other things that have tension or compression loads, the backing plates are put in in place of coring in those areas. For the cleats, which are mostly in shear, I think it was done like I described.

But now you have me wondering about that. I can look tomorrow and clarify.

Either way, the area is not thinner where the backing plates are.

Mark

So what are the advantages & disadvantages of glassed-in backing plates, or chain plates for that matter? And please don't get agitated, I think "bluewater" IP's have glassed-in chain plates too.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by Exile

So what are the advantages & disadvantages of glassed-in backing plates, or chain plates for that matter? And please don't get agitated, I think "bluewater" IP's have glassed-in chain plates too.

Well glassing in chain plates is not a great idea, if done well they are plenty strong but they can aslo be a breeding ground for crevice coronation and very expensive to replace.
Usually the stronger cleats are mounted into solid glass and backed with a large SS backing plate.

[SailAllDay]

Originally Posted by Exile

Try not to jump the guy/gal. First post & all, and he/she obviously is an admirer.

One of many answers I'm sure is that we don't know if this particular Hunter had Kevlar reinforcing. I thought that was a more recent feature but could be wrong.

True, I don't know when Hunter started reinforcing their hulls with kevlar. Susie Q is a 2001 Hunter 460. The Hunter I'm looking at is from 2007. I've been lurking for a long time researching on the forums. Thanks for the kind welcome

[RTB]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

That's an interesting mooring system, Ralph. But a question: are the two 'main" lines that appear to be spliced to the pendant eye part of the supplied rig? If so, I guess that all you are asked to add is the smaller line shown in between the "main" ones.

We don't use moorings often, but so far, all the ones that I've picked up have only the pendant (around here always biggish polypropylene three strand) with a large spliced eye. What you have posted is surely a better system.

Jim

They just supply the pendant with the thimble (eye). Probably, all that splicing is to keep their display lines from going walkabout. In reality, one just uses 2 dock lines. From the cleat though the thimble and back to same cleat. One each side, getting them as equal as possible. The center, extra line is for storm conditions.

Ralph