Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

[44'cruisingcat]

8 boats sunk, 2 people killed, and all this crap because one boat happened to be a Hunter.


Has to be CF at it's lowest.

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Ralph, this seems to have escaped both the fans and the detractors, and to me it pretty well removes any sense from the arguments. To use one example of a 49 foot Hunter's voyaging as proof that lesser models from the same factory are seaworthy is not convincing. Equally, to use the demise of one operated by an inexperienced nut-case as a damning example is also folly.

My opinion? I think that current model Hunters as well as the other subject mass produced boats are quite well capable of making off shore passages in reasonable safety in the hands of a competent sailor. I don't think they are the best choices for sailing into areas of known difficult conditions. I do not think that the anchoring setups, including the long cantilevered rollers, are good designs for folks who intend lots of anchoring in potentially exposed anchorages (which is kinda the definition of long range cruisers). As shown, the windlass/chain locker setups are awkward and poorly organized, as others have mentioned.

Finally, I don't agree that the anchor roller should not be used to take the strain from one's snubber. A well designed roller should be easily strong enough to absorb those loads, and in our thousands of anchorings over the past 28 years we have always lead the snubber over the roller. We have experienced zero damage as a result of this practice. It should be obvious that far greater loads are experienced when breaking out the anchor in pitching conditions (where practical considerations may preclude the loads being taken by the snubber as they should be).

Oh... all rollers should incorporate some means of preventing the chain/snubber from jumping out, as apparently happened to the beached Hinter. I can't imagine why this would not be included in any roller design.

Cheers,

Jim

Jim - in general I agree with you. I posted the photos of Sequitur in response to the crtique that the bow roller design/construction itself is flawed/weak. In an over-arching context, I can certainly see how it could be designed/built to be "stronger" (hence my wording above). But it's certainly not inherently flawed/weak on this boat that faced some very, very challenging and force-inducing anchoring. The roller was not the problem - despite all the criticism as to how it was designed and built.

If someone wants to make a claim that something is poorly designed and/or built - then they need to show examples of that problem manifesting itself for it to be at all believable. Furthermore, they need to show that it happens on Hunters more than on other boats with similar features to make their point...if that's what they are proposing.

A Hunter breaking apart on a beach in a hurricane is an interesting picture. But it's not a very good analysis of the merits of the design/build of a bow-roller. Same goes for the cleat we haven't seen despite the title of this thread.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg

Well, not in my opinion... Another of my Least Favorite Features on the Valiant I just took south, as a matter of fact... :-)

Even worse is the arrangement on a Cabo Rico 42 I've sailed quite a bit in recent years... A wonderful boat in many respects, but the anchoring setup would drive me nuts in short order... I don't think I've ever raised the anchor on that thing without it wanting to hook itself on the bobstay, or something... One thing that I value highly, is the ability to deploy a Big Bertha - in the form of a large Northill or Luke style storm anchor - in the event conditions should ever warrant... I just don't see how one would manage to do so, even the simple removal of the primary anchor is a very awkward chore, with a setup like this. (pic is not mine, but of a different CR 42)





The thing I can't understand about the prods like that on the Hunter 49, is why the builder simply doesn't add a solid bobstay-style rod to give it some additional support? As is done on many boats like the Saga 43, for example... This simple modification would afford the additional benefit of being able to use the roller as an attachment point for an asymetrical or gennaker, and yet I've never noticed anyone do this... Few upgrades could be easier, no?

Sorta like this?

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by minaret

Sorta like this?

Cool. So what amount of downward/angular/torsional force does that allow for on the extended anchor roller?

100,000 lbf? 200,000? 200?

[Exile]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

Cool. So what amount of downward/angular/torsional force does that allow for on the extended anchor roller?

100,000 lbf? 200,000? 200?

Since I know Minaret is a busy guy, I'll give you a hint:

More downward/angular/torsional force than a similarly-sized Hunter.

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by Exile

Since I know Minaret is a busy guy, I'll give you a hint:

More downward/angular/torsional force than a similarly-sized Hunter.

Are you going to bet your boat on that?

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

I too run my snubber over the bow roller to a cleat and the bow roller and structure should be robust. Its an area that is often under built on newer boats

Glad you posted this. I do the same but after a few comments on this thread was starting to wonder if I was being foolish. I do have chocks on either side of the bow but if I run the snubber through a chock the boat sails madly at anchor. If I run my snubber over the bow roller it's rock steady and the roller is pretty substantial. Haven't weathered a hurricane but a midnight thunderstorm with 40+ gusts wasn't a problem.

I may try a bridle through both chocks to see how that effects the sailing issue.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg

Why would a solid rod in support not aid in counteracting downward forces imparted at the end of the roller?

….

What many seem to overlook, however, that there may often come a time when during the course of anchor retrieval - if one is forced to bug out of an anchorage during a rising gale, for instance - there is no getting around having the roller subjected to enormous forces and snatching loads...

I read your description as "bobstay" and visualized a traditional type. Yes, a solid rod would help to some extent, but if it wasn't fortified with lateral support, it wouldn't be of much use. Once the downward force moves lateral to the normal plane of the support, the support from below gets weak quickly.

I'm not arguing that an anchor roller should not be designed to take some large "normal" anchoring loads. The number of rollers out there on all boats that can take sustained high loads from all directions are in rare company. That is why I believe that anchoring loads should be removed from the roller and moved to stronger, dedicated parts of the boat - or in a way that the load is shared by the boat.

If one truly has a roller that is designed for this usage, then by all means use it. But if you google for images of damaged bow rollers, you will find some pretty stout ones that have ripped apart and pretzeled. Also, as you pointed out with examples, even some big name BWC manufacturers fail here.

So where does one draw the line? Our roller is similar to that Hunter's and we have pulled the bows almost underwater with occasional snatch loads on it while anchoring, etc with no problem or damage to it. It has taken forces that I'm sure would have damaged our windlass or pulled it out if I didn't have the chain stoppered. However, I would not continually put all anchoring load on it in all conditions. We have dedicated hard points and leads for that.

Can you be sure that Hunter arrangement isn't similar to ours?

Mark

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Glad you posted this. I do the same but after a few comments on this thread was starting to wonder if I was being foolish. I do have chocks on either side of the bow but if I run the snubber through a chock the boat sails madly at anchor. If I run my snubber over the bow roller it's rock steady and the roller is pretty substantial. Haven't weathered a hurricane but a midnight thunderstorm with 40+ gusts wasn't a problem.

I may try a bridle through both chocks to see how that effects the sailing issue.

I use a heavy reinforced hose tied to the bow pulpit for chafe protection. This system has worked for us for several thousand nights at anchor with no problems. While sailing in the Med we noticed that people anchored with snubbers that were set for about 24". Takes the load off the windless which is proper but doesn't act like a big elastic like one 8 or 10 feet long or longer does.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

Are you going to bet your boat on that?

That would be a good bet. The picture is deceiving - that roller is much closer to the bow and supported in a substantial sprit structure with lateral support, as well as that bobstay bar (bobbar?).

Mark

[Jon Eisberg]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

So you're going to continue to imply that Micheal's lying about all of this. Wow. Okay.

Obviously, I need to locate the button for the Sarcasm Font around here...

Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg
I dunno, seems to me you might be the more likely candidate for a bit of Night School or online refresher course in Engineering, if you really believe some of these Hunter anchor rollers "perfectly suited", or "built just right" for the rigors of extended voyaging...:-))

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

I didn't say that, I said this:

Originally Posted by smackdaddy
When you guys look at beefing anything and everything up as "upgrades" - when you don't really understand the engineering behind what's there and what forces it's intended for - it's not necessarily an "upgrade". It's just adding stuff you "guess" needs to be there.

You guys can point out all the fender washers you want - but unless we are seeing common failures of these areas under the standard use-cases for these boats...they are actually designed and built just right.

So, according to your Production/Bluewater thread, modern production boats are "just fine" for " Bluewater Sailing"... But in this thread, it's the rigors of "extended voyaging" which fall outside of the purview of their "standard use-cases", huh?

OK, that's clear as mud...

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

I understand leverage. And thus far, you have very little of it in this particular debate.

Hmmm, I'm not convinced you do... :-)





One of the things I found most eye-opening about the detailed photos showing the inside of the ripped off stem of Calabrese's wrecked 420, was the complete absence of any sort of reinforcement beneath the aft end of the anchor roller...

Given the absence of a larger foredeck area to help 'spread the load' of that fitting, don't you think there should be some sort of bulkhead, or at least a vertical tie-rod to the hull, beneath the aft end of that fitting?

Would you be comfortable mounting an inner forestay, for example, to that point, without it being tied into a bulkhead, or similar support structure?

Damn, I wish I had access to one of those boats at the moment, so I could stick a camera up under that little scrap of deck, and see precisely how that roller/stem fitting is backed up...

Really BIG fender washers, perhaps?

:-))

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by colemj

That would be a good bet. The picture is deceiving - that roller is much closer to the bow and supported in a substantial sprit structure with lateral support, as well as that bobstay bar (bobbar?).

Mark

My point is - all of this eye-balling. No one here really knows the numbers behind any of it. To say it's stronger or weaker based on appearance is okay to some point. But to say it's "too weak" or "strong enough" is just guessing.

Was this one on a Freedom 40 "strong enough"?



What about this Caliber 40?





Remember, Micheal's Hunter's bow roller didn't bend. These did. So what does that tell us?

Again - numbers count when critiquing a boat's design and/or build.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Glad you posted this. I do the same but after a few comments on this thread was starting to wonder if I was being foolish. I do have chocks on either side of the bow but if I run the snubber through a chock the boat sails madly at anchor. If I run my snubber over the bow roller it's rock steady and the roller is pretty substantial. Haven't weathered a hurricane but a midnight thunderstorm with 40+ gusts wasn't a problem.

I may try a bridle through both chocks to see how that effects the sailing issue.

Ditto! Thanks for posting this. Had the same concerns and was going to try the same bridle set-up through the chocks.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

My point is - all of this eye-balling. No one here really knows the numbers behind any of it. To say it's stronger or weaker based on appearance is okay to some point. But to say it's "too weak" or "strong enough" is just guessing.

Was this one on a Freedom 40 "strong enough"?



What about this Caliber 40?





Remember, Micheal's Hunter's bow roller didn't bend. These did. So what does that tell us?

Again - numbers count when critiquing a boat's design and/or build.

I'm not seeing any decking being pulled out in these pics. Maybe the rollers acted as a "fuse" to save the deck, right Smack? More to the point, why are you resistant to some free advice that is geared towards improving an important system on a boat? May or may not work, but you sound like a guy who's OK with "adequate" when you might be able to have "better." Nobody would dispute that boats -- of any stripe -- don't need some mods to prepare for serious offshore voyaging.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg

Obviously, I need to locate the button for the Sarcasm Font around here...

I can help you with that!